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Forums - は+passive+も~はない

Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



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|マルコ|
Level: 110

Sorry if I'm about to throw you an hard question, I tried some other places as well but I didn't found an answer that makes me understand this.

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So I've encountered this sentence on the game I'm currently playing, and my translation guess was:
"Anyway, even if you thank me there is no reason for me to be yelled at"


two other persons have provided this translation
"In any case, your gratitude doesn't give you the right to yell at me"

and this:
"Anyway, just because you're grateful doesn't mean you can yell at me."

meanwhile, the game english official translation has this:

"I should be thanked, so why do I have to be yelled at?"

so you can see why I am confused, in my and those 2 people's translations the thanking took place, while in the english official translation is an "expected hypotetical situation"

Then, a third person came along and said this:
I disagree with the other answers. はされてもどなられるいはない is like
されることはあっても、
どなられるいはない or されこそすれ、どなられるいはない.
It emphasizes the negation of the main clause by implying the opposite may be true. Something like
"There is no reason for me to be yelled at. If anything, Ishould be thanked."


So this person translation is in line with the original one, and he's probably right, but still I'm clearly not understanding the grammar or grammar pattern that would allow me to see that sentence as they understand it (I am probably also not undestanding the equivalent japanese sentence shown by the third person).

My question is, do you guys have any link or useful explanation that can help me understand this and instinctively get the correct meaning out of this sentence?

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4 years ago
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マイコー
Level: 256

I'm having a really hard time seeing how something in there implies that the gratitude was not given. Did these translators have the "official" translation when making their guesses, or did they come up with it organically?

Also, I would be wary of directly translating from the official English, unless it literally says "this sentence in Japanese means this in English". This is probably debated in the translator community, but the job of translation is not necessarily to create a grammatically equivalent version in another language, but to create a sentence, which along with the other sentences around it, create the same reaction/feelings/etc. in the speaker of the second language.

It's most likely why ともかく is not present in the official version. As language learners, we don't want to drop words out of translations, but at the same time, I don't think words like ともかく・とにかく are used as much in English. Same thing with something like ちゃんと. It is almost impossible to directly translate, so a bit of creativity is needed in order to take the desired meaning/intention of the word and make it present in English.

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4 years ago
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|マルコ|
Level: 110

me and the first two guys translated that way without first seying the original translation, after that I dug up and shared with them the english version of the game (from youtube), and then the third guy proposed his interpretation in agreement with the original translation.
He actually just replied again, I'll share what he said here as well in case sheds more light on this pattern, I have read the link yet, but here what he just said:

Sorry, I can't find anything in particular, but I guess the issue is ても? Maybe look at the papers I linked here. Also, this sentence pattern is very close to the こそすれ pattern, so I recommend looking up stuff on that. Here are some examples:

はされてもはされない。
The prime minister may get censured, but never praised.

このままでは、はしてもするみはまるでない。
At this rate, global warming may get worse but there is almost no possibility it will improve.

やらやらうが、すようなしたみはしてもそうはしないだろう。
People talk of rehabilitation and reentry to society, but those who
commit crimes do not easily repent after they have been punished. If anything, they may hold resentment.

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4 years ago
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