The sentence that follows 上で does not have to be an action but, a statement like ”Doing such and such is useful/convenient/good" or "it is like the doctor/booklet/etc. instructions". You cannot use 上で as ために.
Yea - I'll repeat our conversation for others - the site will be updated soon so a to handle searching for grammar on both the kanji, hiragana, or a mix of both. Thanks for pointing it out.
The first example is using うえ to mean 'above', and the second one is the じょう form of it. I was looking more for a good way to describe the sentence + 上 + の + Noun + ActionB (although I bet it's always た form before the 上) in english, in the way that the current meaning is First A (is done), then B. I'll keep thinking on it. I have an idea, but the site currently (I need to fix this) doesn't have a way of writing out that construction pattern (it's a bit complex as to why).
There seems to be a second meaning to the 上で construction. I am using the book, どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型５００ to study for JLPT 1 and 2. The book's explanations are written in Japanese, so I look for help on the internet too. Apparently, 上で can also be used to indicate purpose too, much like ために or ように. There are nuances, of course, I just don't know what it is. The description given for ~上で is「~」という重要な目的を表す. Here are two examples sentences taken from the book:
Again, I have a good idea how 上で is used. But it would really be nice to know how it is different from all the other ways of saying, more or less, "for the purpose of."
I've looked in a few books that I have, but haven't been able to find any definitions that match what you have. That's not to say I don't think it's correct, just that I haven't been able to find anything backing that up.
If you have some time, I'd recommend reposting it in the site's general forums, asking to see if anyone else knows about it (they're viewed more often than these are). If we can get some consensus then we can definitely add it to this page!
I agree with pentrixter! Today my Japanese teacher explained that meaning for 上で too and gave those same examples (I suppose she's using the same text book).
Ok, checked. What we need to do before entering this into the dictionary is find/construct a specific list of forms that it can come in. So far (according to the examples), we have:
I just wanted to say that when 上で is used as ”in order to” the sentence that follows does not have to be an action but, a statement like ”Doing such and such is useful/convenient/good" or "it is like the doctor/bookclet/etc. instructions".
You cannot use 上で as ために. I was taught this by my Japanese teacher. I am sorry I was not able to explain it better to you.
I will list here some of the sentence posted by the other users which are correct:
民権の上で有権者権法は重要な一歩だった。
テレビは外国語の勉強の上でかなり役に立ちます。
I'm not sure about the one where つもり is used but I am sure these ones are corrected.
That seems to fit under the second definition 'Indicates an important purpose/goal A' - feel free to add your notes as a Usage Note if you'd like so it gets more exposure!
According to my teachers A + た上で + B means 'After making the necessary preparations (A) I'll decide what to do (B).' As a result B often includes the verb 決める or any other implied decision making. The construction, unlike ～てから, is not used for habitual actions. The example sentence 「朝食を食べて歯を磨みがいた上で、学校へ行く。」sounds very much like habitual action. How does it fit into this construction?
I'm doing a bit of reading in the A Dictionary of Intermediate Grammar (wonderful), and it expands on what your teacher said, just a bit.
a - The second part does not need a decision to made, simply an action to follow the preparatory action. It does say that the main action is relatively important, but it doesn't have to be a decision.
So it gives two examples, one with is not ok, one which is.
彼は必ず翌日の予定表を調べたうえで床につく。He always goes to bed after looking at the following day's schedule. > This one IS valid, and also represents a habitual action. It shows the schedule check as being preparation for going to bed. (and therefore facing the new day).
彼は必ずシャワーを浴びたうえで寝る。 He always takes a shower before going to bed. > This one is not valid, as it supposedly lacks the sense of preparation.
So it sounds like your teacher's explanation is a bit too restrictive, as it can certainly show an action that is not an outright decision. I would personally say (and I checked with someone else who said it was ok) that brushing your teeth so you don't have bad breath is considered preparation for going to a social gathering (school).
Thanks for the explanation. That helps. Maybe my teacher was so restrictive, because that was the definition, we had to learn at that point. Teachers do not necessarily expand information beyond their schedule.^^
Yeah, I know this Grammar Dictionary is great. I have the basic version. Haven't got around to buying the intermediate and advanced ones, yet.
I definitely know that strategy. I often tell me students that this is the main definition, or this is the case 95% of the time, and that they only need to worry about this def now.
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