Vocabulary dictionary

Kanji dictionary

Grammar dictionary

Sentence lookup

test
 

Forums - I'm confused and at a loss....

Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



avatar
VCR86
Level: 10

I have stupid but serious questions.

I keep seeing people getting attacked on other sites because of romaji. People are extremely toxic calling people "cringe fat weebs". I'm mostly learning Hiragana at the moment and I place the romaji with my hiragana (above or below the kana when I write it on paper) to make sentences and grammar. They say don't use romaji but to "use kana" but how am I supposed to know what the kana is? I am at a loss, I see the mean things people say online and it makes me sad and honestly, I think I'm done learning this language, no matter I love it. This site seems fine but other sites are just super toxic to the point it makes me depressed.

I don't understand how Japanese people read the symbols.... since I'm a native speaker of English, I only know how to pronounce latin script (which is the romaji I see under the symbols and such) (like あ is "a" which is "ah")

Here is an example of mine:

Manga
(mahn-guh)
(Hiragana spelling)
まんが
ま ("ma") ん ("n") が ("ga")
"Comics or graphic novels originating from Japan."

I know my Japanese one day might be good enough where I don't need the romaji and I can remember everything.

3
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar
richie_royce
Level: 414

Do what works best for you. Don't be discourage by different learning styles. I used to be a romaji only type of guy until i fully grasped hira and kana. You're doing this for you and no one else. Cheer up :) Rome wasnt build in a day. Feel free to reach out if you ever want to practic together!

3
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar

You seem to stuck in a mindset that says: I can’t do this. The kana syllabaries aren’t that difficult to learn. Many people do it a few days, (although most people take a lot longer). You won’t be able to to get much out of this site if you persist with romaji, but that doesn’t mean you need to give up on Japanese. It will limit you, but there’s no way around that.

7
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar
Anonymous123
Level: 1413

I've never seen anybody attacked here. People here are pretty understanding of the struggles in learning Japanese.

While many people, choose to start learning hiragana as the first step, if that is an approach you are uncomfortable with, there is an alternative more gradual approach available. The Japanese From Zero series starts off in romaji and gradually introduces each character, and replaces the romaji with kana.

I strongly believe that the key to success in learning Japanese is picking an approach that works for you and that you can stick to.

.

For kana pronunciations: If you look in the kana chart, or the dictionary here, they have sound recordings for each of the kana

(The dictionary also has sound for many words)


7
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar
マイコー
Level: 292

A lot of learners on renshuu have told me that they couldn't grasp the kana until they used renshuu, do you might find that what we have here works for you.

Although the way that people often explain it is far from useful and often harmful, the underlying idea is not wrong. Romaji should only be used to learn the kana, and then dropped and never used again. The reasons are as follows:

1. If your want to learn Japanese beyond just a few words and phrases, you absolutely must learn kana. It is essential to the language as the ABCs are to English.

2. Romaji is an imperfect representation of Japanese, and obscures parts of the language, making it harder to notice certain concepts, for example, the usage of accent marks to change the pronunciation of certain kana.

3. Given that #1 is true, the most efficient way to learn is to get it out of the way as fast as possible, although, like others have said, "fast" is relative, and you needn't worry about how fast or slow you are compared to others.

4. Once you get the kana down at a basic level, using it to study words is basically a two for one deal: you learn new words, and you review your kana!



6
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar
VCR86
Level: 10

I thank you for the replies.

I know I'll have to drop romaji once I learn and memorize everything.

People online made it sound like I had to learn the kana without the romaji pronunciation. I was completely confused.



6
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar

I'm sorry to hear that you faced so many toxic communities. Please don't feel scared to ask for help on Renshuu, we are all here to support you!

FYI, romaji is still useful for typing out Japanese, especially if you're on a computer with standard QWERTY keyboards/keycaps. It is a common input method (mainly on PCs), so if you prefer using romaji to type your Japanese, don't feel afraid to use it!

5
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar

Sorry to hear about your negative experience, VCR86. It's another sad occurences that's part of the never-ending arguments about the one-true-way™ to learn a language. Everyone who participate in the spat believes theirs to be right because it worked for themselves or they believe it to work best.

I see the situation similar to aggresive martial art schools tooting their own horns until things get settled in the UFC fighting ring, and sometimes the losing side will respond with "It is the person who lost, not the martial art." But I digress.

We're a welcoming group over here. I'm sure you'll find that many are willing to jump in to help you when you ask for it.


Foundation for Self-confidence in Learning

Find the best way for yourself to learn. You may take some notes from fellow learners, but before you apply the tips, you'll need to make sure you fully understand the context and prerequisite of the various study methods and their philosophy of learning. Each step may have different foundation needs.

As for why native japanese people can learn the way they do, it is because they start from when they begin to listen and memory starts working as a baby. They are in perpetual language immersion when they are born, coupled with a child's extremely high brain plasticity from age 1 to 7, picking up a native language is easy for them. Then, there are also children who picked up and are fluent with more than 5 languages by age of 10.

As we age, our brain plasticity gets more rigid due to deeper specialization and many optimization for adult survival. It takes a longer time to learn something new without any existing foundation to build upon.

So, never compare to others and be hard on yourself. Don't take it too hard from others' dogmatic harsh criticisms that doesn't consider the learner's situation. You only need to compare to your yesterday self, because no one else is like you.

I'll always ask myself "Did I take a small step forward in my effort to improve today?" Be content, no matter how small a step, there is progress. Whether I learned a new letter, a new term, a new language joke, deciphered an anime character's mumblings, etc., all those are progress, and I'm fine with my pace and am in no life-threatening hurry, as my purpose is different from others.

I'll take the opportunity to share my learning perspective since we have similarities of having english as our first language. Hopefully, it'll help you gain some good perspective.


Learning Japanese Using Another Language

In your case, and much like many of ours, we learn japanese using another language (english) but not native japanese to japanese. There's some steps of learning to walk before we go sprinting, so don't throw all those advanced tips away outright.

Let's start with the basics. As an english speaker, we learn the latin-based alphabets. As a native speaker, rememeber how do we learn? Mostly, those foundation steps are rote learning some parts then we lead to inclusion of associative learning.

Look at the first 5 letter sets of english alphabets:
Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee
Looking back now, other than "C", how do we even group the symbols together and recognize the capital letters and small letters (uppercase & lowercase)? How did we learn to read?
I remember being taught "A" and "a" are both "A"s as rote learning. Then I went with "A" for "Apple" as associative learning. This goes on for all 26 sets of english alphabets of both upper and lower cases. You can apply the technique as well for japanese.

Now look at japanese, we have hiragana "あ" and katakana "ア" where both are read "AH" and can be represented as "a" in romanji. So we have 5 sets of A I U E O as あア、いイ、うウ、えエ、おオ。Just like the english alphabet learning.
Fun fact: Hiragana is modern writing introduced in the recent history of the language reform. Previously, there was only katakana (and kanji).
You can think of hiragana as glyphs with curly brush strokes and katakana and glyphs with sharp pointy pencil/pen strokes.

We have something that native japanese doesn't. That is "cheating" or "express-learning" with romaji because we already know how to read and can augment the pronunciation of the letter combinations to make them sound close enough to the japanese version. Japanese school children only learn romaji at 3rd grade, and for them, romaji is not as much of a study aid as it is to us.

However, as english speakers we tend to group alphabets together as we read as though it is english (diphthongs) subconsciously. Often times, I would read romaji of (たいせつ)"taisetsu" as "tai-set-su" instead of "ta-i-se-tsu". That's the pitfall with romaji-only text.
The obvious way here is to have karaoke text of individual japanese kana with romaji below to aid learning, and that would be very helpful to build your foundation to avoid english-reading tendencies and getting prepped up to transition faster to fluency.

Fun fact: English is stress-timed, Japanese is mora-timed.
Mora is akin to a beat in a constant rhythm.
In fact here's an excellent article from the late Dolly-sensei about a japanese learning song "amenbo no uta": The Rhythm of Japanese: Improve your speaking and hearing


Your example of (まんが)is "ma-n-ga" read 3 mora-timed, rather than other common foreign reading of "mang-ga", "man-ga", etc.

Once you have grasped the mora-time reading, you have leveled up again and ready for the next step!

Up the Proficiency Ladder

Gradually, once you have remembered all the japanese kana, you may find that:
"An all-romaji text by itself adds more confusion than clarity of individual distinct kana in long texts."

And the next step after this when you leveled up further will sound similar but with different subjects:
"An all-kana text by itself adds more confusion than the clarity of having kanji in long texts."

That is the nature of japanese language and how it has evolved into up till recent times. Ambiguity is rampantly built into the language, and each step (of character upgrade) as we learn, helps reduce the ambiguity and increase clarity of intent.

When you are ready, the next challenge to help speed up even more, is to increase immersion level. One way recommended by the late Dolly-sensei is activity-boxed immersion. Start small, pick one small/short activity, everything strict japanese-only. You can watch drama/anime with japanese-only audio and subtitles; Read your favourite light novel in original japanese with a japanese-to-japanese dictionary accompaniment; Japanese-only chat for a short session (Renshuu has many activities in discord).


I'll end my sharing over here. Hopefully, you may gain something on your japanese language-learning journey, in addition to all the other great posts before me, fit for your purpose.

Feel free to ask for help anytime. Be foolish once with a question, and then a little wiser forever more with the answers.

5
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar
VCR86
Level: 10

I thank you all for the replies. I like this app so far, it has helped me a lot. Here is another one of my examples that I hope is correct. Thank you Kuma for your nice reply. Thank you everyone, I have also gotten support on another site. (Not the toxic site in question that I will not name.)

I don't have an account for the toxic site in question but I would look up stuff on Google and that site would show up first result and anything to do with learning with Romaji, it was extremely hateful people attacking the poster as I said up there. I thought I was doing something wrong so that's why I vented on here.


Onions

Tamanegi
ねぎ

(tama) (I know this is Kanji)
ね (ne)
ぎ (gi)

tama
ne ("neh as in ne in net")
gi ("gee as in geese")

By doing stuff like this, I'm starting to remember the symbols and how they sound, and this app is helping me too.

I have read some text from the Japanese version of Harvest Moon Animal Parade and one of the characters said "まあ" and I easily recognised that because of my spelling of manga. I remember ま because of what I did. I remember あ because of Azumanga Daioh and I have also scribbled it down a lot.


2
1 year ago
Report Content
avatar

Hi VCR86,

You are most welcome. I am glad that you found a good way to learn with your example on ねぎ by associative learning. While learning, it's always fun to combine multiple approaches together, like partly studying the basic foundation, and also sprinkling activities involving random skips in difficulty by consuming public japanese media (no difficulty restriction) accompanied by a good J-E dictionary.
TIP: youtube search japanese children's songs.
Inu no Omawari-san (romaji)

Inu no Omawari-san (kana)

A suggestion here would be, if you have Kanji in your choice of media, then it would be best to find material where those kanji are accompanied by their respective furigana (the superscript kana on top of the kanji) which will help you to read. If furigana is not available at time of reading, then refer to a dictionary.

Fun fact: in literature sometimes the furigana is a total mismatch with the kanji as these are used for double entendre for artistic expression including sarcasm.


I would also suggest an exercise of breaking down into kana and then into romaji i.e. ねぎ -> たまねぎ -> tamanegi or ta-ma-ne-gi (to keep the mora reading).

I think all kana characters have a standard reading (including those with ten-ten and maru diacritic) and most alternate readings may be attributed to dialect or pronunciation preference e.g. ふ (romaji: fu, reading: "fu", "hu", or actual japanese reading which is in between the two english pronunciations), が (romaji: ga, reading: "ga" or "nga".)

The one with a significant difference is は which the romaji is "ha", which due to historic changes and language reforms have survived till modern times. It is usually read "ha" when it is part of other words, but it becomes read as "wa" only when used as topic marker.

Example:
きです。
ねぎせんせいはたまねぎがすきです。

negi-sensei ha tamanegi ga suki desu. (writing)

negi-sensei wa tamanegi ga suki desu. (reading)

Fun fact: In the modern (hira- and kata-) kana tables, there are 2 kana characters which has been deprecated in each table, but still can be found in some old texts, and are still included in the unicode standard. Their readings have been deprecated or replaced.


One observation in the media I have consumed, is that many (unofficial) romaji media do not have standardized breaks/spaces between japanese terms and their sentence parts.

Most romaji grouping I saw, helps with nouns which seem pretty standard until we reach advanced term composition. However, I quickly get confused by the non-standard space-breaks of non-nouns. You may find some kinks as well.

The tip here, is to find the japanese-standard romaji from official sources. Else the other way is to graduate out of the wading pool of romaji and start swimming in a deeper pool with kana once you are comfortable reading the glyphs like how you are able to read the english alphabets, or french alphabets accented letters with diacritic.

By the way, I love harvest moon. I started playing their first version in the series on super nintendo (guess my generation?) And I picked up japanese to play their non-translated japanese gundam games.


p.s. I have fixed the link to the late Dolly sensei's article on Amenbo no Uta.

2
1 year ago
Report Content
Getting the posts




Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese


Loading the list
Lv.

Sorry, there was an error on renshuu! If it's OK, please describe what you were doing. This will help us fix the issue.

Characters to show:





Use your mouse or finger to write characters in the box.
■ Katakana ■ Hiragana