掲示板 Forums - JLPT versus fluency

ok, as a language teacher I have to say that I find 'literacy' and 'fluency' to be two rather different things, and I think that the JLPT, seeing as it does not test Speaking (which is a main component of fluency), it is not a very good test of fluency, but rather is a test for literacy. I also know people who are fluent in Japanese but wouldn't test well on the JLPT (actually I have a friend whose first language is Japanese, but thinks he failed N2 last week!). To me, the JLPT is a test on test-taking. That's not saying it's not a measure for language ability by any means, it's just not a test on common-knowledge Japanese, or a measure of how well you'd survive in Japan. It's a test of how well you remember all the picky little grammar patterns and obscure vocabulary words that aren't used in daily conversation (this is more about the N1 than the N2 though, but it still applies to the latter).
That being said, if I hear that someone has passed the N2, I'd have the impression that they were at least conversational in Japanese - it is, after all, a requirement for most colleges in Japan for matriculating non-Japanese students, as well as for many jobs in Japan for foreigners. It is definitely an accomplishment! Just conversely, I would not look poorly on someone who had *not* passed, because it doesn't necessarily have that much a bearing on someone's actual fluency.

I hope that all made sense. I should get down off my soapbox now...

Thank you both.

Your replies make perfect sense to me. I have experience with proficiency exams in other languages and the situation is similar.

If I could impose a little more. Do any of you have any experience with translation. Again, I am interested in how the JLPT is an indicator of ability to do translation.

I do understand there are several "kinds" of translation. Any information on translation requirements/tests/materials from Japanese to other languages is appreciated.

Thank you. It makes sense.

I'd give an unused part of my brain to have even an ounce of fluency. Having to convert 99% from English or into English uses too much processing power. Of course, if you are an interpreter or a translator, then that's your job. I can only imagine the headaches those people get until they are used to the whole process. Do the headaches [i]ever[/i] go away?

I'd say that people who are ready to sit the high levels of JLPT (N2 or N1) should have at least some fluency. As said, not everyone will be totally fluent in conversation; especially if they have aimed just to pass those tests. But if you want any language to stick and to be good at that language (whether for testing purposes or not), doesn't it make sense to work on spoken fluency and aural comprehension as well? You'll do a darn sight better on any test if you have spoken fluency, even if not being tested for it, as language tends to be a whole package. :)

And yet at 中 there is listening and speaking testing, even if the 小 level is still trying to find its niche. If kids are interested in English they can do quite well (and vice versa: eg. 中三年 who can't even answer simple questions). It doesn't give students any real fluency, but it does boost their confidence when they can answer questions during an oral exam or memorise a speech for recitation contests. I've helped 中学生 to prepare for speeches, and if you get them to recognise where in any given sentence the stress points are, it flows so much better over all. Language is not only an all-in-one package, but also intertwined with culture. Try teaching someone who has studied Japanese at university and passed, for example, N2 - try teaching them how to recognise the different tastes of white rice. Those things can only be learned through experience. In the end, if you are aiming to be a test taker, forget everything and just cram deliberately and solely for the JLPT. But if you are learning the language because you want immersion and to have a bigger part of yourself opened up to a whole other culture, learn Japanese and do the JLPT tests as you progress, just as a sort of milestone or marker to gauge where your written comprehension and listening skills lie.

I would love to see a speaking component on the JLPT, but as you were saying, with the amount of test-takers I really don't see the feasibility or cost-effectiveness - the only way I could see it working is if the had everyone set up in booths instead of desks (which hey, would cut down on the fear of cheating off someone else's paper!) and everyone gets a tape-recorder-type deal... but just think of how that would up the price to take the exam! It's already rather crazily expensive.

TOEFL now has a speaking part as well where they give you a topic and 15 seconds to prepare your 30-45 second answer which is then recorded and graded along with the other sections. This would of course mean making JLPT computer based...

Should be easier and faster for them to check all the scores and calculate there scaled scores and what questions were difficult etc. as it seems that the questions that a disproportionate amount of people got wrong is more heavily weighted than a simple one if you read between the lines ([url]http://www.jlpt.jp/e/about/pdf/scaledscore_e.pdf[/url]) despite the same section of questions supposedly awarding the same points per questions. I only had a 38/60 on one section but still got an A which is supposed to be 67% and over which 38/60 clearly is not... Anyway, yeah, computer based JLPTs would be great. I'm sure more people do TOEIC and TOEFL per year than JLPT...

Hello everyone! I passed N4 and N3, have some courage to "try to speak" Japanese when I see Japanese tourists in the midst of Istanbul but when it comes to talking to our teachers, I get tongue-tied, which is quite out of character for me. Part of that comes from not understanding who they are talking about in their sentences, whether it is appropriate to say something that floats up into our conscience, whatever. We did kaiwa half of a year. Discussions involved questions which were more personal than needed and sometimes the personal did not really do it. Then kaiwa was over. Living in Japan could have helped a great deal but I am not, currently. So I am starting to take private lessons to be able to speak the language :o. While it is exhausting to try to patch up what isn't being done in the course, there is not much one can do on one's own. Is there?

I agree with Geckomayhem. There are so many ways to get better at listening and speaking without having to be in Japan. I know plenty of people in Japan who have lived there for even decades and their Japanese is still at an N5 level if even that. I'm sure I've suggested this before but if you like music, just listen to your favorite band and try to write down as much of the lyrics as you can, after that check, but before you look at a translation, try to translate it yourself. (As an example, look for something like this, preferrably with kanji http://flyingcrispi.wordpress.com/2008/04/19/prisoner-of-love-utada-hikaru-romanized-lyrics-translated-lyrics/) If you prefer movies/drama/anime, why not try "fan-subbing" from a RAW file just for your own amusement. No need to actually become a fansubber :) For reading, since you're not surrounded by Japanese, try a reader (there a list of them under Study Resources) or even manga in addition to your textbooks. Or why not write a blog or keep a personal diary in Japanese or perhaps go old-fashioned and find a Japanese penpal. You'll learn more than you think :)