掲示板 Forums - Is it better to only learn words?

There are people who say ignore grammar and focus on vocabulary. I agree that vocabulary should be the priority, but I also think this is a false dichotomy. Part of learning words is learning how to use them, and that’s grammar.

While I agree with the general idea, I'd like to add a small caveat against some uses of the "that's how children learn their native language too" argument: Children do that at a very, very early age. The number of synapses in their brain at the time, compared to an adult's or even a teenager's, is HUGE. We don't acquire and organise information in the same way at the ages of 3, 10, 18 years old, because our brains look very different compared to the time when we acquire spoken language.

Hence some reserve about using the argument "you don't need to do X because neither do children when they first learn". It might work for you, but not because it does for them. Your brain might be wired for remembering and making connections and deductions that way — or not. Whatever works works.

For me personally, I’m quite the opposite. I only started to enjoy myself once I began learning the grammar. But that brings me to my main point. it’s all up to you! Are you someone who enjoys complex topics and is genuinely interested in the subject? Then yes grammar will help you immensely. Or are you someone who hates traditional bookwork? In that case, there’s no need to bang your head against the wall for hours when you could be learning in a way that actually feels fun.

Fun looks different for everyone. Some people love grammar; others don’t. This might be a little off-topic, but it still relates to the idea of learning theory or grammar versus just doing the thing. When I first learned guitar, I followed the classic approach: learning songs and shapes. I had zero fun and almost gave up. But once I dove into music theory, everything changed and now, a few years later, I’m having a blast with music.

Others might thrive just by learning songs and that’s great! I’m just not one of those people.You see what I mean? It’s all about you and how you learn. Don’t create unnecessary friction in your learning process just because of what’s labeled as “right” or “wrong.” With something as flexible as language, you should take the path of least resistance as long as you’re staying efficient.

Well, I don't disagree with the previous argument but the whole idea behind the immersion trend came from the "that's how children learn their native language" idea. And the basic principle is the same. As for the "can you do the exact same thing?" part as adult or a student, well no you can't. But that doesn't prevent to do it to some degree. So, in that regard, I don't think it's wrong despite all the counter-argument. But only, in that regard. You can nuance indefinitly in one way or another but honestly, that's a task for the researchers. Not for the learners. In my case, I already spent too much time trying to solve those questions or debate about them instead of learning japanese. WHICH was my initial god damn goal in the end. But when you get drag into those debate, you kinda waste a lot of time and forget it because of that. Beginner should have the liberty of chosing their methods and be free from those debate. Will it make the cons of those methods disapear? No. But at least, they will try those methods of their own volition and they will only have themselves to blame (~~and me laughing behind the scene~~)

But that's still better than being told or convice to learn japanese this or that way and end up almost hating the people who told you that later. And also do the same thing to beginner when you're at a more advanced level. Because that's what a lot of of advanced end up doing. Including myself. I know that I'm biased despite knowing that and my effort to not do that even when I try to include that "There is no right or wrong methods or perfect method". So yeah, if you are a beginner reading this, don't be afraid to try a certain method even if a lot of people told you not to or despite the argument that you heard. Especially if there are at least some people using that method. But even if it's not the case, it maybe simply the community that you're in that only swear by one method. And then, you just go to another community and then all the people there will tell you "You were not wrong". Also, if you're currently struggling with your current method then maybe it's just the method itself which is wrong. And not you. So just try something else. Even on a whim. I'm not saying that you should give up easily but oh well. I can't count the number of time where I changed my method of learning, going from one tool to another, one extreme to another until I realize the pros and cons of that method. And try a new one. Again. I can't promise you it will be easier but at least, it will be a little less frustrating if you don't end up blaming the tool, the methods or the people that told you to learn that way.

As for grammar, uuh, I don't even want to talk about it. Grammar is often presented as a perfect monolithic block that will solve all your problem, help you to gain insight on how native think and give you the ability to speak but oh boy. I will just give single example on that. A bit after I arrived, I discovered the normalizer function of の. I never heard of that thing in my previous attemp to learn japanese. But why not, let's try to understand that thing. Months later, still struggling on some grammar point with の, I coincidently discovered some japanese grammar ressources. And then... I can't find that "normalizer" function of の, whatever I do. It simply doesn't exist. Instead, one of the function of の is "noun substitution". I won't go into the detail but basically, it's an alternate explanation that explain の differently. And explain differents things too. In that case, the grammar point that I've been struggling for more than 8 months... Also had some people telling to stick to that initial grammar and not the japanese one. Depiste the fact that that grammar miraculeously help me to understand a few things that I've been struggling with for months.

Anyway, all of that just to say, not even grammar is perfect. And there are multiple grammar too. Lot of them. I only scratch the surface here. So if you are a beginner reading this, hum... take it easy? And just try the method/grammar you want to try? It will never be perfect anyway. But it will be at least a little bit more fun if it's you who decide to try that method. I think. Probably...
Oh well, anyway, whatever you choose, I can probably find at least one person that used that method at some point, had fun using it or who will swear only by that method. So don't worry too much. And if you're struggling too much even after a few month, then maybe blame the method or the grammar.

Oh and learning a language is fun. I swear. It is. At some point. Sometimes. ~~I absolutly did not loose my mind a few times because of all those different methods or waste an incredible amount of times debating which method is the best or end up incredibly frustrated a few times to the point of giving up, nooo~~. It will be fiiiine～

But yeah. Real advice: take it easy. Just try and grab the things that works for you like others said. And don't let yourself drag into those debate that even researcher can't agree on. It's good to ask for advice. It's better to try and see for yourself.

@nathantesoriero I also play guitar, but don't like learning music theory. I guess we just have different learning styles in general (not just Japanese)

I think of learning grammar kind of like understanding the meaning behind a rule like why that rule even exists. That’s why I always compare it to learning guitar. At least for me, that’s how my brain works.For example, when I first started learning chord progressions, I kept hearing the classic 1-4-5 progression. People would talk about it like it was just a given but I wanted to know why those chords worked so well together. Why not 1-2-5? Or 1-3-5? That’s where theory comes in it’s the “why” behind the sound, and I need that to really get it. Some people are totally fine just going, “Well, that’s how it is,” and playing it as they hear it. But I learn best when I understand the reasoning behind it.

It’s the same for me with language. You can totally pick up grammar just by listening and repeating, and that works well for a lot of people. But if you’re naturally curious about why a sentence is structured a certain way, or why a particle is used here and not there, then grammar becomes this deeper study. That’s where it gets really interesting for me.

I could be wrong, but that’s just how I’ve always thought about it I kind of fall on the side of loving to study the “why” behind things, whether it’s music or language. There’s no one answer to is learning words better than grammar it’s completely up to the individual.

"Formating myself to speak in a standard way", especially in educationnal context.
It's not really about how people think or how the language work but more about how people should speak. That's also why linguist don't get along grammarian. Because the former seek the meaning while the later just want a set of rule that make people speak the same way. Which is, btw, really important because if everyone were to speak with their strongest dialect, it would be a mess. Just imagine if every politician used their strongest dialect, if they would all speak like an old irish man that even native english speaker would struggle with. It would be a mess.

It doesn't mean that grammar doesn't give you any insight on how language work or people think. But every grammar, be it for native or foreigner, are kinda "tainted" with that "how you should speak" part. And most ressources become a guessing game on which part is the meaning or the artificial rule. Or both.

But what most learner expect from grammar is the "why" not the "how". And their are also often told that grammar will give them the "why". Which, yeah, I guess in some case? But it's reeaally far from the ideal image of grammar that most beginner have.

I think the thing that I found the most annoying with grammar is how beginner sometimes spend so much time trying to understand a rule to point of wanting giving up. With the hope that grammar will magically gave the ability to understand or speak the language. Or give you some insight on how people think.

I don't like to give my opinion (Yeah, I know, I'm only doing that right now) but I think, it's better to just internalize the rule and meaning first through immersion first and then lightly use grammar to "structure" that knowdledge. I also think it will be easier for most people. Why? Because if you want to go down the grammar path first, you will have to prepared to make some deep dive. To the point of even reading some linguistic article if you really to be truly satisfied. And even in those case, it can be fruitless. Most people don't want to do that and don't have the time to do that.

So, yeah. I guess I'm biased on that for most people. Even if I, myself, do some grammar deep dive from time to time.