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Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese

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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
I was thinking about the kanji today, and in the past I've thought about how many readings for it that I've come across. So I decided to work out as many readings as I could with just my Jap-Eng dictionary and a Japanese kanji monster that I found in the school library (I work at a Japanese school).

I managed to collate around 12 readings for the kanji. But then I decided to check Denshi-jisho in my break to see if I'd missed any. If you include archaic or rare readings, there appears to be a total of 17 possible unique readings for the kanji. I'll outline them below.

But first, I wanted to link to [url=http://members.chello.cz/losten/ScanImage002.gif]this image[/url]. In doing a search, I came across it. It misses a few of the readings for that I've found (being obviously from a children's book), and for the handful of kanji that are compared a number of "readings" are doubled (such as げる・がる). has 17 [i]unique pronunciations[/i], and if you take into account double-ups as the image does, there are even more [i]readings[/i] than that.

It fascinates me - and scares me - just how many different ways you can pronounce some kanji depending on what else they are with. But the more I become fascinated with kanji, and the more that I attempt to learn, the easier it seems to be getting to kind of guess which reading to use. At least with most, the み and み are limited to one or two respectively, and the more you use words in context, the better you can get at guessing correctly which pronunciation to use.

Ok, so here are the 17 unique pronunciations for (which I think of as なま). Please note that two or three are very rare readings. Also note that these are in no particular order:
きる ([b]い[/b]きる) ける ([b]い[/b]ける)
 ([b]なま[/b]みず) クリーム([b]なま[/b]くりいむ)
まれる ([b]う[/b]まれる) む ([b]う[/b]む)
 (たん[b]じょう[/b]び)
 ([b]せい[/b]かつ)  (せん[b]せい[/b])
 ([b]しょう[/b])  (いっ[b]しょう[/b]けんめい)
やす ([b]は[/b]やす) える ([b]は[/b]える)
ち ([b]お[/b]いたち) う ([b]お[/b]う)
 ([b]き[/b])  ([b]き[/b]じ)
 ([b]うぶ[/b])
 (しば[b]ふ[/b])
る ([b]な[/b]る) す ([b]な[/b]す)
 ([b]あい[/b]にく)
す ([b]む[/b]す)
 ([b]なまり[/b])
 ([b]いく[/b])  ([b]いく[/b]い)
 ([b]いき[/b]え)

So that's:
あい・い・いき・いく・う・うぶ・お・き・しょう・じょう・せい・な・なま・なまり・は・ふ・む

Even taking out the somewhat rare and archaic ones, we are still left with many different readings for the kanji. And that's just insane (but cool, nonetheless!). ;)
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13 years ago
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That's really interesting, thanks for posting it.
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13 years ago
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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
[quote author=valymer link=topic=1511.msg8956#msg8956 date=1328857547]
That's really interesting, thanks for posting it.
[/quote]

You're welcome. I figured I wasn't the only one who finds these sorts of things pretty darn interesting. It's definitely a challenge to learn all of the more "common" readings for quite a few kanji. Even Japanese learners take years to find the various pronunciation combinations.

It simply takes practice (and a lot of reading) to recognise kanji in their various forms. It's all about the [i]okurigana[/i]. :)
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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
sometimes it's even more than the おくりがな - sometimes it's pure context, like はじく & ひく (both are readings for , with く as the おくりがな) ^^;; The one that always annoyed me? ひらく/あく (both appear as く, and their meanings are similar enough to be really confusing as to which one is used when!)
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13 years ago
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Ahhh, I still have a hell of a time with ひらく・あく :-\

I really love the system, and it definitely has advantages over the Roman alphabet.

But, it seems there are two main stumbling blocks for me learning to read Japanese well.

The first, as you have vividly demonstrated here, is the wildly varying pronunciations for a single character. I supposed that this is to be expected in Sinoxenic languages but it really pushes the limits of my memory to try to remember all of the variations.

The other major hurdle (though it is less of one than the first) is words that have the exact same pronunciation and mean basically the same thing (just a different nuance or context, usually) but have completely different characters. Things like く・く, , etc.

When the おくりがな is different, I'm actually really excited because there's a chance I'll remember the difference then ::) For example, く・う gives me enough visual difference to remember which is which...

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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
I personally actually really like the different kanji for different nuances of the same word (I know, I'm a freak of nature :P ) - to me, it adds a layer of depth to the language that's fascinating... at least, once you get a grasp on the nuances of differences between the different kanji (which is why I love working with Japanese OSes - the kanji selectors there when you're typing sometimes give you usage notes that I've learned a lot from!). I mean, in English we have so many words for the same action (I was explaining 'look' vs 'see' vs 'watch' the other day in class, for example), having the different kanji in Japanese almost makes *more* sense to me than the opposite ^^;;
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13 years ago
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I like it, and for a lot of words it really makes sense (especially verbs). But sometimes I wish it was just a different word with a different spelling, because Lord knows Japanese already has enough homonyms! :o
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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
true enough... there's only so many words they can make with the , I guess ;)
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13 years ago
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Since we're talking about it, what about words with differing おくりがな? For example, what's the difference between す and わす? I just chose the latter as the answer to one of those kanji quiz questions testing you on the おくりがな, and it was wrong. But, my primary dictionary doesn't even list す as a possible spelling, while my other dictionary lists both as identical in meaning... ???
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13 years ago
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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
If you're gonna talk about おくりがな and the way kanji appears, you might as well mention things like き vs , or み vs (and so on... and on...).

I just wanted to chime in with look, see and watch, though. This is a good example of actual different words in English; unlike many synonyms, such as basic vs easy or hard vs difficult (of which there is a reason, and that is that our language has grown from multiple other languages, so we end up doubling or even tripling up on words). But to look, to see, or to watch, all have different meanings and uses. If you "look (at a) TV" or "see (a) TV", it's totally different to when you "watch TV" (or "watch [u]a[/u] TV", though what a TV would actually do in that instance is... a strange thought).

To look: an active involvement of the eyes to deliberately direct your gaze somewhere.
To see: happenstance, at times, but more of a passive action; it is what your eyes inherently do, provided you aren't blind
To watch: the most active of all visual activities, it is deliberately and purposely directing your visual receptors to receive specific incoming visual data.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit, but my passions lie more with English than Japanese. I'm just along for the ride now and trying to make the most of it amidst myriad frustrations.

But kanji in all its nuance and meaning is slowly building in me an appreciation for its existence and use. If things can make sense to me now sometimes by checking out which kanji are used, I can only imagine how imperative it will be once my Japanese strengthens and I learn more and more of the .

It's only a plus to find it all interesting and intriguing, right? Even though 95% doesn't make one iota of sense. :o
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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
Gecko - I can't agree with you more! I love the class that asked the question - it's 7 6th graders, and they're just awesome - I'm going to miss them so much when they graduate and LEAVE ME next month! :'( But explaining the difference between the three in Japanese was fun/difficult - there were lots of demonstrations involved - and then they asked what the difference was between 'watch TV' and 'watch the (or a) TV' - god I love those kids! And just like you were saying, I'm not exactly sure what the TV would be doing then...
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13 years ago
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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
Ah, the smaller classes are great. It's good that 6th graders are asking such questions (and I can't imagine what you would have fumbled through to try and explain articles to 12 year olds). At , I avoided speaking Japanese as much as possible. My philosophy was that learning and cultural exchange defy the boundaries of language, and there are more ways to experience other cultures than to understand every single word coming out of your teacher's mouth (I would say assistant teacher, but... おまかせ!).

The Japanese school system may move slowly, but having more English input for 5th and 6th grade primary students is only a plus. I even had the opportunity recently to teach an English class at my own school, because the teacher wanted her 6th grade class to have a 6th period on a day, and of course was busy with all the other teachers and parents. It was pretty fun falling back into the role of English teacher for 45 minutes. >.<

To get back on topic: I asked the teacher I work with today what the difference between the two readings of その is (そのた・そのほか). It's another example of being able to read the same thing with two completely different pronunciations. It actually led to a discussion* of め・め, and ultimately kanji in general. Also, earlier today while quizzing, I couldn't remember the reading of ひらく for く, so I simply typed あく and converted it, hahaha. Funny thing is, until reading the reply in this thread that addressed that kanji specifically, I didn't know it could be read as あく! Funny how the brain works; and just what you remember.

* I say "discussion", but my Japanese is still pretty limited, so my attempts to communicate with my colleagues involve a lot of stumbling over conjugations and lack of grammar at my end... and frantically trying to snatch out words I understand from the other.
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13 years ago
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So no one knows which is correct out of す・わす? Are they both acceptable, similar to how "miniscule" has more or less become a variant spelling for (or even surpassed in usage) the word "minuscule"?

If indeed they are both correct forms, I think that the kanji quiz should accept both as correct answers.
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13 years ago
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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
[quote author=valymer link=topic_id=1511&post_id=9038#rmsg_9038 date=1329920041]similar to how "miniscule" has more or less become a variant spelling for (or even surpassed in usage) the word "minuscule[/quote] I was actually under the impression that "miniscule" was purely a misspelling of the word. When did it become acceptable? Maybe, considering how fluid the English language is, certain words are overlooked so much that they eventually end up with two spellings. But I'm no expert on the ebb and floe* of grammar and spelling by any means. * Like an iceberg bobbing in an ocean of tears. I would say that, as with other cases, す and わす are interchangeable. I only know the word as す anyway! It's one of those cases where there are two possible kanji for what appears to be the same word. We use (ひょう) a fair bit at school, so I've learned す.
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13 years ago
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[quote author=Geckomayhem link=topic_id=1511&post_id=25348#rmsg_25348 date=1330576122]I was actually under the impression that "miniscule" was purely a misspelling of the word. When did it become acceptable? [/quote] Like most words, it started out as a misspelling, and may still be considered as such by many purists. However, consider the information at the following site: http://www.barnsdle.demon.co.uk/spell/mini.html [quote author=Geckomayhem link=topic_id=1511&post_id=25348#rmsg_25348 date=1330576122]I would say that, as with other cases, す and わす are interchangeable. I only know the word as す anyway! It's one of those cases where there are two possible kanji for what appears to be the same word. We use (ひょう) a fair bit at school, so I've learned す.[/quote] In the time since I posted that last comment, I've asked around a bit. Basically the consensus I got was almost identical to the whole miniscule/minuscule debate. あらわす can have either one or two correct spellings (that use ), depending on who you ask or what "authority" you consult. Although, the fact that わす is not universally accepted would lead me to use す explicitly, just to be on the safe side.
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Oxford American Dictionary: [b]miniscule[/b]: mistaken spelling of [b]minuscule[/b]. Acknowledged, but still incorrect.
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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
we are all such nerds - I love it!! ;D
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[quote author=Hektor6766 link=topic_id=1511&post_id=25350#rmsg_25350 date=1330577264]Oxford American Dictionary: [b]miniscule[/b]: mistaken spelling of [b]minuscule[/b]. Acknowledged, but still incorrect.[/quote] Yeah, it just depends on where you look. Some reputable dictionaries have listed [miniscule] as a full-fledged alternate spelling/variant since the 1980s. Since there is no single, completely authoritative governing body for English (or Japanese, for that matter), I don't believe that situations such as this can be simplified to a right or wrong case. Language is not unlike a living organism when it comes to the incredible ways in which it constantly evolves. What is wrong today may become standard usage tomorrow - especially in a case like we are discussing where the "incorrect" usage has consistently kept pace with, if not in some instances outnumbered, the "accepted" form. Since you mentioned the Oxford American Dictionary, have a look at this segment of an article written by Ben Zimmer for the Oxford University Press's blog: [quote]Consider another more common case of vowel mixup. The word minuscule is etymologically related to minus, which ought to help with remembering the spelling. But pressure from the prefix mini- and words like miniature and minimum leads many people to spell the word as miniscule instead. This spelling has become so widespread, even in professional writing, that most current dictionaries list it as a variant. The New Oxford American Dictionary provides an entry for miniscule but calls it a “nonstandard spelling” and gives a usage note warning readers away from this “common error.” Are we perhaps being too hard on miniscule? Lexicographers here at OUP can consult the Oxford English Corpus to see just how accepted this spelling has become. In our hardly minuscule collection of 21st-century written texts, the spelling miniscule actually outnumbers minuscule, by a ratio of about 55% to 45%. From the big all-encompassing Corpus we can extract smaller groups of texts, or subcorpora, to see exactly where the variant usage is coming from. Not surprisingly, the less standard spelling miniscule crops up more frequently in unedited writing. Focusing only on texts that we can identify as having been edited, the percentages are reversed, with 55% of writers preferring minuscule to 45% for miniscule. As for the unedited texts we’ve collected, there’s no contest: miniscule shows up a whopping 73% of the time. If we’re finding a preference for miniscule over minuscule in nearly half of edited writing and nearly three-quarters of unedited writing, then it’s likely that we’ll need to reconsider the treatment of the miniscule variant in future editions of our dictionaries, in order to reflect its gradual acceptance across the range of English usage. This development is not new, by the way — according to the Oxford English Dictionary, miniscule has been appearing in published prose since the late 19th century, and gripes about the spelling have been aired in the popular press since at least the 1970s. Despite disapproving of miniscule, Garner’s Modern American Usage acknowledges its appearance in a variety of reputable publications, from major newspapers to Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (“Harry saw that the little square for June thirteenth seemed to have turned into a miniscule television screen”). How you react to this sort of change in usage depends on your point of view. Linguistic purists would likely decry the popularization of a spelling variant like miniscule as just one more sign that English is on the slippery slope to oblivion. From another perspective, however, this is simply the way that language evolves. Personally, what I find most significant is that this orthographic change didn’t just come out of the blue. First, the usage of minuscule expanded from its original typographical sense referring to lower-case letters (as opposed to majuscule), eventually coming to refer to anything tiny or insignificant. That meant the miniscule spelling could be thought of as equally plausible, or even more plausible, because the ‘tiny, insignificant’ sense is a perfect match for the mini- prefix (even if the rest of the word, -scule, is not meaningful on its own). Through associations with the whole class of mini-words, the miniscule spelling ends up making sense in a new way. And that’s the kind of semantic motivation we find again and again when words get reshaped in common usage. Next week I’ll take a look at how this same sort of motivation remakes idiomatic expressions once the original idioms start to fade away. A warning: it may offend the more straight-laced of our readers who expect English users to tow the line.[/quote] I'm actually reading a fascinating book by Bill Bryson right now called [i]Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the United States[/i] which goes heavily into the evolution of American English from British English, starting with the original Plymouth Colony. It's amazing to see how many words that we use every day in American English are corruptions/misspellings of British English, Native American, Spanish, and French terms. To cite just one commonly-known example, the simple difference in spelling between [i]color[/i] and [i]colour[/i] was originally heralded as a grossly negligent error - until Daniel Webster's 1828 dictionary featured only the [i]-or[/i] spelling for words such as [i]neighbor[/i], [i]rumor[/i], [i]flavor[/i], and [i]color[/i], setting the American standard for a whole slew of related vocabulary. Dictionaries are works of reference, but they can also be powerful agents of change.
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13 years ago
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mysticfive
Level: 1957
and if you think about it, it's only relatively recently in the history of English that there even has been any standardization (or standardisation for the Brits ;) ) of spelling at all! Look at Shakespeare; arguably the greatest English-speaking writer of all times, and he couldn't even spell his own name the same way consistantly! His name has been seen spelled (spelt) Willam, Willem, Wiliam, William, I believe I've also seen a 'y' in there - Wilyam. English spelling only really started to stabilize (stabilise) in the 17th century. Yup, I think I've just confirmed I'm a complete nerd :P
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13 years ago
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Geckomayhem
Level: 1
And you misspelled "century". :p When did this thread take off? :o That dictionary article was very interesting. And I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that we can't be sticklers for perfect spelling and grammar. We should teach learners of English that there is diversity and flexibility in the language, even within any given sub-culture. Not only must we remember that every region within any given country has its own colloquialisms, but overall English is such a widespread, evolving language as to make some form of standardisation not only impossible, but pointless. ;) Thank God we don't all speak French. :p It made me glad to learn that Japanese only has two common irregular verbs. But then I started trying to learn grammar. :(
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