掲示板 Forums - Kanjis

Okay, so, I will clarify my suggestion first and then answer your question.

1) "Obvious" compound words lists:
The goal of that list is to develop your understanding of compound words. And as weird as it sounds, you won't study kanji directly with that one.

It will be more like a list of easy words to get used to compound words and develop your 語感 ("sense of words" but more literally "word/language feeling").
雨水 for example, is like the most simple kind of compound word. The kanji meanings simply blend together.
上下 is also on the easier side but already a bit more difficult. Mainly because there are no words like that in english (or at least, they are not as common). It's both "up" and "down" at the same time. The kanjis don't blend together in this case. They are just stating "up" and "down", juxtaposing both concepts. And after that, they can produce various meanings depending on the context (up and down, up and down part, going up and going down, etc.). And interpreting those meanings is an ability that you will acquire naturally as you observe those kinds of words. As long as your image of the kanjis are clear enough and your 語感 is sharp enough. You may even realize why some translation are slightly incorrect sometimes. Like for 多少 which is literally just "lot" and "little". More specifically, this one is like a "between" lot and little (as you can see in the second definition: "amount, number, etc"). And from that you get the first translated meaning "a litte, some, etc" in polite context. It's like saying, "whether you do a lot or just a little, I will be satisfied (with even a little)". And that just for the most simple kind of compound words. Sometimes, the meaning of kanjis converge to the same thing (or diverge/oppose each others). Other time, one kanji provide the main meaning while the second just add a small nuance. Etc, etc.

Okay, I have a lot more to say, but I will stop here for now. Also, you will probably need a "main" kanji schedule (like JLPT, kanji kentei, Kaishi 1.5K, kyouiku kanjis, etc).

2) Heavily compounded kanjis:
That one is more straightforward. It will be about kanjis that are very commonly compounded with other words like 学, 者, 力, etc.
The idea behind that is to quickly get rid of those kanjis. Because once you've studied 10 or 20 words per kanji, you will be done with them.

3) Radical kanjis or themed kanjis:
That one is probably the most difficult to do when you can't read japanese definition. And even with that, it's not that easy.
But it can also help a lot. I wouldn't recommend that one for now.

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All of those list ideas are here mainly to help with your ability to understand kanjis, not to study them directly. You will need another schedule for that. Also, they are not here to be studied the standard way. Like for 1), when I study those kinds of words, I'm simply looking at the words, trying to recall the meaning without seeing the definition and check if it more or less matches the rough meaning. I also pause and open the kanji dictionary to understand what I'm still unable to grasp when I'm wrong. So they are a bit special. But they did work for me and now, I'm having fun guessing the meaning of words that I had never learned before. Or enjoying conversation about that with Japanese when they teach me a new word. And seriously, at intermediate level, you won't believe the number of words that you will be able to understand. Even with words that you never studied before. It's just... kanjis are amazing for that.

So, right now, I just need you to tell me what would be the most interesting/fun for you and then, we can work on the details from there. Also, if you have other ideas that you want to try, feel free to share them. Those are really just suggestions based on what you said and I'm really open to other ideas. I didn't touch the idea of using different types of list like word + kanji schedules or word + sentence schedules. But at the same time, it's on purpose (because it's lot more works)

"And where would I place the lists? Here? Or should I start my own study group/category for that purpose? "
Yes, here. You just need to start a list and suggest that list.
If you start your own study group, I won't be able to help though. I can't join another group right now because it will probably be too much work.

Also, we can use this thread to continue our discussion about that.

Okay～

After reading your answer tho, I think your best bet would be creating a study group dedicated to that objective. You may not find someone who is better than you but even from beginner, you can learn a lot. Just answering questions can also make you realize a lot of things. And eventually, you may find someone better than you that could answer your question. As long as they know that there is people like them and a place for that. Which is the main problem most of the time with online communities. I'm pretty sure that there will be a few people like that if you create that groupe. Like "What??? There was a study group dedicated to kanjis, compound words and etymology all this time???". Especially among Intermediate/advanced learner who tend to lost their interest in the community since they can't find what they want anymore (or don't know about others people with the same interest).

And until that happen, you can work on beginner lists as a starting point for your group and try to gather more members. Later, if you want to have more "advanced" list, you could also send motivated people here to create those lists. I hope that I can develop that kind of relation with other study groups. Like, they are busy with managing the group, they would also like to have a few more specific lists but are slightly short-handed. So they come here to get a few extra hands, we work together on those lists and after that, they can go back to their study groups to create new activity based on those lists.

It will probably won't happen soon but oh well, I can still dream of it in the meantime x)
Anyway, let me know once you know what you want to do =p

No, you're not. What newbie study N2 kanjis? é_è
At least, trust what did so far. You may still struggle with sentences, like tons of other people, but that doesn't remove the fact that you still did study kanjis until N2. Just help them to do the same thing that you did, for those who are willing/like you, and that will be enough. As long as you stay humble and are willing to show that you're not perfect. You shouldn't be afraid of making mistakes or misleading other students. And being an "advanced" learner doesn't prevent you from doing that. If anything, it makes it worse :v

Because you gain some confidence in the way you learned Japanese or in your current understanding of Japanese. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean it will be true for everyone. As long as you keep that in mind, it's good enough.

When people have the same interests, they also tend to learn the same way as well as develop the same weaknesses. And they are also the best to solve their own struggle. For example, people that focus too much on reading or kanjis often struggle to produce sentences or with basic conversation. But it's fine like that. They will just fix their weakness later while still enjoying what they like the most. On the other hand, what is wrong is giving advice to people that want to learn different things or in a different way. Because when you give the wrong advice to the wrong person, that can make their Japanese journey incredibly frustrating. Same with "correct" answers.

For example, etymology is a historical discipline. And like all historical disciplines, they are based on historical materials. In this case, books, for example. But the main problem with those kinds of disciplines is that, unfortunately, not everything has been preserved up until today. And what happens when they are missing "data" like that? Well, they make hypothesis. And when
they make hypothesis, their opinions also often diverge...

When that happens, my stance is very clear. I take the answer that I "like" the most for me and for other people, I'm like, "Choose the one that you like, I won't decide for you". Or at least, that is what I want to be. Even scientists struggle with those, so I'm certainly not fit to decide which answer is the correct one. And you too, you don't need to be perfect or to know every answer. It's fine to talk only about your personal experience so far while also being unsure. You just need to tell them.

So what I really hope for that group is that we can help people to start their own group and learn what they like the most among people that like the same things. While also working on the weaknesses they share eventually. And also that can give appropriate advises or answers between themselves. We may be able to help a little bit, but the goal is either to find people that are better at that subject or to help you find some way to check by yourself. And later, you will probably find better answers within your group than here.

Also, you're at N2. You're not that far from me. In terms of number kanjis, you may be more advanced than me. Now, I feel arrogant about what I said before ; ;

Edit: never mind, you've definitely studied far more kanjis than me... I was arrogant.
Have some faith in that at least! è_é
And grammar is just a different beast! You don't need grammar to answer kanjis questions!

That's why you were so fast! Abnormaly fast... even amongst the learner that focus mainly on kanji.

Honnestly, it's a very good method which biggest advantage is like you said to learn new words. It's far easier to learn new words when your are even a little bit familiar with the kanji in that word.

I sometimes wish I had studied like that. But most of the time, I don't regret it since I also have some real advantage with my method.

For the method, I'm studying the kanji kentei instead of JLPT. And it come already with some particularity. For example, kanji lists often group kanji with the same reading which can be overwhelming but at the same time forced me to be aware of that.
I also spend a lot of time on each kanji. If we compare our stat, I more or less spent the same amount of time but only on half of the jouyou kanji (I'm around 1140 kanji and I answered 25000 kanjis questions). In addition to that, I'm always learning kanji with words. I learn around 1000 words for 200 kanjis usually. For some kanjis, I'm even at 400 words per kanji (but most of the time, I'm at 150 per kanjis). And I also use the same technique when I found myself struggling on some kanjis (adding a few words in another schedule). Except that I'm doing that for the meaning but also the readings. Not too long ago, I also tried to add some writing practice but gave up recently because it was too much (I will probably come back to that later though).
So you can see that it can quickly add up. And even become overwhelming. I did burn out because of that. Right now, it's still hard but I managed to find some kind of balance. Also I only studied the primary school reading (but soon, I will study start to study the middle school one since I'm almost done with the primary one).

The biggest advantage is that I have a really good grasp on the kanji that I learned. To the point where I can "see" the kanjis in a spoken conversation. Like even if I never studied some words, I can guess the kanjis used in those words mid-conversation. Also, when japanese struggle to identify a certain kanji in a spoken, they usually list a bunch of words that contain that kanji. And since I have a more or less big pool of words per kanji, it help a lot.
Biggest disadvantage is that it's slow... like really slow. And each time, I tried to speed up the process, I also burned out.
But I'm fine since I'm not in a hurry (even if sometimes, I'm a bit jealous of people that took a faster approach).
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Also, for your group, there are multiples list that you could include already. Each with pros and cons:

- JLPT: focus on common words, hard to learn because it doesn't have pedagogical considerations. The advantage though is that is that it can help more for immersion later.
- Kaishi 1.5K: focus on common words but more oriented towards spoken japanese if I remember well. Same as JLPT otherwise.
- Jouyou kanji by grade/kyouiku kanji: The way japanese learn kanjis at school. Focus on pedagogy. It doesn't care as much on how common each kanji are but the trade off is that kanji are easier to learn. Like each have a specific rank and are often group by theme (like 上下左右 are learned around the same time, same with 北南東西, etc). They also have other pedagogical considerations that help.
- Kanji kentei: Based on the jouyou/kyouiku kanji list but reorganized inside each grade. For example, kanji learn at the same time often have the same on'yomi reading. It can be really confusing to study but it also make you more aware of those homophone. The goal of that list is really to become a kanji master. There are also other consideration for that objective (like the compounding ability of each kanji from what I heard).
- RTK (Remember the kanji) list: Not sure if that one is renshuu but basically, it focus understanding each kanji from its part or radical (?). I'm not to sure about the detail but it focus on how to remember the meaning more easily. Disadvantage is that you will learn useless kanji or radical in order to do that from what I heard.

So yeah, plently of different methods that you can share to your future 仲間 =p

Noted :)

Although for that part,
"I really liked your suggestion that we begin with something like "rainwater" and other simple compound words. I think I'd like to make one kanji the theme of each (short) list, at least in the beginning, and then include kanji that have already been studied in each successive list (as possible)"

You probably won't be able to do that for each kanji. Not all kanji have simple compounds. Some have tons of simple compounds while others don't have a single one. What I did instead is doing that by level (Like kanji kentei 10級, etc). Except it was not focus strictly on the meaning but also the reading. It's also more difficult for the lower level because most words contains "higher" kanjis. So making one list per kanji is just not possible. So going with the level may be the only way (unless you find other ideas to do that)

But otherwise, yeah, it really help a lot. If you can create that kind of list for the JLPT, it will probably help a lot people (since most people use the JLPT lists).

Probably a hypothetical reconstruction of Old chinese (also called Archaic chinese) pronunciation x)
It's not an abbreviation but some phonetic symbols.
The reason why you did see it multiple times is probably because it's a shared reading (like しょう in japanese).
Also it's completely hypothetical. Like, we don't know how Old chinese was pronounced, so historical linguists infer that kind of thing from modern language pronounciations and from classical text that have been preserved until today. Poetry for example can be used for that purpose.

Apparently that one come from the system created by Zhengzhang Shangfang, a chinese linguist, if you want to know more (there is a wikipedia article).

But honnestly, you going a bit far into the past here
I mean, as long as you have fun, it's fine but keep in mind that not even linguists are really 100% confident about those things.
It's like a puzzle with a thousand pieces but your missing 950 pieces and you're trying to guess what the puzzle was suposed to represent.

Yeah, I think there was a slight display bug x)

Also, I think it's the Zhengzhang Shangfang system =p. From what I can tell, it's the only one that have ɯ as a vowel.
And I didn't notice yesterday through my research but there are at least 8 different reconstruction of Old chinese xD

Yeah, basically, it's like the idea of common ancestor in biology.
"Since those two languages/dialects/words/pronunciations exist and share some similarities, there should have been something in-between at some point before"
Don't ask for the details too though. I like fun/interesting general facts about that but the details are just too much work x)
And I'm already trying to not get too greedy even if it's fun