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This topic is tied to the below grammar expression in the grammar library.
Follows A; turning the sentence into a question (casual).

Example(s)

ねぇ  パパ     してる            
Mom, dad is putting on some makeup. Is he really a woman ?
A's B (shows possession)

Example(s)

   パソコン     
Her computer is old.
The A one
A directly modifies B, B of A

Example(s)

 から  メール   しぶりに  いた  
I got the first email from him in awhile.
B who/that is a(n) A

Example(s)

       さん      んでいる  
The Prime Minster Sato lives nearby.
C which/whose A is B. C's A is B
Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese > Grammar Library Talk

Page: 1 of 2



Studying: JLPT 2
Level: 1, : 54
Isn't there a way to mix んですか/なんですか with the informality of の? Could I do something like this: にそんなにんだなんの? To mean "You really read a book that thick in one day?"
I am thinking ん だい is a little different but can't put my finger on why...
2
11 years ago
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Years Studied: 9
Studying:
Level: 2, : 286
Aren't they just formal and informal versions of the same thing? I think of そうなの and wonder what's going on grammatically myself...
2
9 years ago (Edited 9 years ago.)
guest
「のです」・「のだ」 is the full version of the "explanatory extension." 「ん です」・「んだ」 is an extremely common spoken (and informally written) contracted variant. But, it can't be used directly after a noun, because then there wouldn't technically be a copula at the end of the sentence. So... 「なのです」・「なんです」(and 「なのだ」・「なんだ」) are used after nouns. Note that the な is actually a morphed だ, and you can see why it is used. When asking for an explanation, obviously all of these things can have a か at the end. So something like: アルバイトにくのですか? or (アルバイトにくんですか?) なのですか?   or (なんですか?) When using the casual form in a question, though, the だ drops out. Notice that in this case you cannot contract の into ん: アルバイトにくのか? なのか? The above can sound somewhat abrupt (or masculine), so oftentimes people (especially, but certainly not limited to, women) will drop the か. The の is then said with the same rising intonation that the question marker か is usually given. Again, this cannot be contracted to ん: アルバイトにくの? なの? This form can also be used in non-question statements, in which case there would be no rising intonation on the の: アルバイトにくの。 なの。
2
8 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
A user noted that this page lacked all the basic usages of the particle. The most basic form..N1のN2 ..where N1 adds information to N2 - not sure how to describe that succinctly. Would love ideas. As for others, I have cross-referenced all of this, but I would love to hear if it is clear enough. 1. N1 の N2 -N1 is a general noun, N2 is usually a name of someone/something that is the same as N1 example: のけいこさん, のけんたくん 2. N1のN1 - N2's N1 (shows possession) 3. Adjective+の - used to abbreviate after the noun has been mentioned. --> いの (the red one) --> なの (the sturdy one) The big missing one is where it just..adds information. アメリカの、etc.. での
2
8 years ago
guest
{option} は
The big missing one is where it just..adds information. アメリカの、etc.. での
I think of it like this: 「の」 can either directly modify, or it can correspond to the English preposition [of]. Direct modification would be like 「アメリカの」 (American university), or 「のクローバー」 (four-leaf clover). Behaving more like [of] would be like 「」 (the men of the world), or 「」 (a matter of time). Because of this [of] meaning, depending on the situation 「の」 might actually more closely correspond to other English prepositions, like [at], [in], or [on]:のエレベーター」 -- the elevator on the second floor (the second floor's elevator) 「のテーブル」 -- the table at the park (the park's table) 「のページ」 -- the pages in the book (the book's pages) Interestingly, while in English we have two separate ways to write the above examples, in Japanese they are both expressed simply with the particle 「の」. Also, in your usage #1, 「の」 essentially equates to the relative clause forms [who is]/[that is] in English. Note that they do the same thing in both languages - modify a noun or noun clause. EDIT: Forgot to mention that 「の」 can also serve in place of the subject marker 「が」 in a modifying sentence, for example: 「のいいげた。」 -- The bright student raised his hand. I have not read anything as yet about the difference in nuance (if any), from what I have heard and seen it is more of a stylistic choice than anything, although I'm not 100% sure on that.
4
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
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Years Studied: since 2000
Studying: のため、だから
Level: 126, : 4,375
valymer's usage notes are very good... another very simple one is simply "possessive" or " 's " - even when adding information, the second noun still is in some way belonging to the first...
2
8 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
Ok, I have added several new meanings. I have (under your username) also moved several chunks of valymer's explanations up into the main areas as usage notes, so you retain credit.
2
8 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: since 2000
Studying: のため、だから
Level: 126, : 4,375
what about when an adjective is used after the の? For example のいい or something like that... don't remember if that's somewhere else or not, but I'd feel that would go along with the last usage
1
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
Does it always follow the pattern of [N]の[Adj] [N], and can it always/usually be replaced (not in that sentence, but if it were standalone, and not a modifying clause of a noun?
1
8 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: since 2000
Studying: のため、だから
Level: 126, : 4,375
it's usually in the context of a phrase that would usually take が but then the noun/adjective clause is followed by a noun, if that's what you're referring to...
2
8 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
Added, stuck a few examples showing the comparison between が and の
2
8 years ago
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Years Studied: 3
Studying: JLPT N3
Level: 1, : 267
For the 3rd meaning, (C which/whose A is B. C's A is B. Used as a relative clause to describe C) can you also use な-Adjs?
4
8 years ago
guest
Yes, as in this sentence I pulled off a tumblr feed: 「あなたは、と、のきれいなと、どっちがき?」
3
8 years ago
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Years Studied: N/A
Studying: Kanji Kentei
Level: 1, : 551
For the grammar point "The A one" I think the なの construction for なadjectives is quite misleading as in most cases な and い-adjectives only take の. いカバンがある。ピンクのもある。(17.3 million google hits)Generally not ピンクなのもある (165k Google hits) as the grammar would suggest. I wonder if anyone has a better source than Genki 1, chapter 10 to base this on and could perhaps clarify the grammar description? :)
2
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
I can show that it is optional :)
2
8 years ago
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Years Studied: Many on and off
Studying: N2
Level: 141, : 777
What about the の that follows other particles? As in からの --- a letter from my friend までの --- a ticket to Tokyo へのプレゼント --- a present for my mother Wouldn't that belong to this topic, too? Or is it in a different section? Sorry to bother. I just got started reading through the grammar section, so I don't know if it appears somewhere else on the site.
4
7 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
I would say, it falls under meaning #5 on the page. I will adjust the page today or tomorrow to reflect the additional information. Thanks! Edit: it's up!
1
7 years ago (Edited 7 years ago.)
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Years Studied: Since April '18
Level: 1, : 42
I'm trying to understand a usage of の which I can't make fit into any of the above meanings.  I saw a sentence on another site sith a structure like "です".  I would have understood that to mean "it's the ten o'clock train", where の has meaning 4 above, but the provided translation is "the train is at ten o'clock".  Is their translation incorrect, or is this a meaning that I'm just not grasping correctly?
0
1 year ago
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Site admin
Level: 22, : 4,073
I think "the 10:00 train", as you first put, is much more natural.
0
1 year ago
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Years Studied: Many on and off
Studying: N2
Level: 141, : 777

#4 and #5 have the same construction? Really?

Although I can imagine sth. like からのさん (= Mr. Suzuki, who is from Japan) for #5, but in case of things, how is it different from #4? I'd like to see more verified example sentences for #5, please.

0
2 months ago
Getting the posts


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