Isn't there a way to mix んですか/なんですか with the informality of の? Could I do something like this: 本当にそんなに厚い本を一日で読んだなんの？ To mean "You really read a book that thick in one day?" I am thinking ん だい is a little different but can't put my finger on why...
Aren't they just formal and informal versions of the same thing? I think of そうなの and wonder what's going on grammatically myself...
3
13 years ago
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「のです」・「のだ」 is the full version of the "explanatory extension."
「ん です」・「んだ」 is an extremely common spoken (and informally written) contracted variant. But, it can't be used directly after a noun, because then there wouldn't technically be a copula at the end of the sentence. So...
「なのです」・「なんです」(and 「なのだ」・「なんだ」) are used after nouns. Note that the な is actually a morphed だ, and you can see why it is used.
When asking for an explanation, obviously all of these things can have a か at the end. So something like:
アルバイトに行くのですか？ or （アルバイトに行くんですか？）
彼の自転車なのですか？ or （彼の自転車なんですか？）
When using the casual form in a question, though, the だ drops out. Notice that in this case you cannot contract の into ん:
アルバイトに行くのか？
彼の自転車なのか？
The above can sound somewhat abrupt (or masculine), so oftentimes people (especially, but certainly not limited to, women) will drop the か. The の is then said with the same rising intonation that the question marker か is usually given. Again, this cannot be contracted to ん:
アルバイトに行くの？
彼の自転車なの？
This form can also be used in non-question statements, in which case there would be no rising intonation on the の:
アルバイトに行くの。
彼の自転車なの。
A user noted that this page lacked all the basic usages of the particle. The most basic form..N1のN2 ..where N1 adds information to N2 - not sure how to describe that succinctly. Would love ideas. As for others, I have cross-referenced all of this, but I would love to hear if it is clear enough.
1. N1 の N2 -N1 is a general noun, N2 is usually a name of someone/something that is the same as N1
example: 店員のけいこさん, 子供のけんたくん
2. N1のN1 - N2's N1 (shows possession)
3. Adjective+の - used to abbreviate after the noun has been mentioned.
赤い花 --> 赤いの (the red one)
頑丈な机 --> 頑丈なの (the sturdy one)
The big missing one is where it just..adds information.
アメリカの大学、木の椅子、etc.. 新潟での祭り
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12 years ago
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[quote author=マイコー link=topic_id=4891&post_id=25573#rmsg_25573 date=1331604104]The big missing one is where it just..adds information.
アメリカの大学、木の椅子、etc.. 新潟での祭り[/quote]
I think of it like this:
[b]「の」 can either directly modify, or it can correspond to the English preposition [of].[/b]
Direct modification would be like 「アメリカの大学」 (American university), or 「四つ葉のクローバー」 (four-leaf clover).
Behaving more like [of] would be like 「世の中の男」 (the men of the world), or 「時間の問題」 (a matter of time).
[b]Because of this [of] meaning, depending on the situation 「の」 might actually more closely correspond to other English prepositions, like [at], [in], or [on]:[/b]
「二階のエレベーター」 -- the elevator on the second floor (the second floor's elevator)
「公園のテーブル」 -- the table at the park (the park's table)
「本のページ」 -- the pages in the book (the book's pages)
Interestingly, while in English we have two separate ways to write the above examples, in Japanese they are both expressed simply with the particle 「の」.
Also, in your usage #1, 「の」 essentially equates to the relative clause forms [who is]/[that is] in English. Note that they do the same thing in both languages - modify a noun or noun clause.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that 「の」 can also serve in place of the subject marker 「が」 in a modifying sentence, for example:
「頭のいい生徒が手を上げた。」 -- The bright student raised his hand.
I have not read anything as yet about the difference in nuance (if any), from what I have heard and seen it is more of a stylistic choice than anything, although I'm not 100% sure on that.
valymer's usage notes are very good... another very simple one is simply "possessive" or " 's " - even when adding information, the second noun still is in some way belonging to the first...
Ok, I have added several new meanings. I have (under your username) also moved several chunks of valymer's explanations up into the main areas as usage notes, so you retain credit.
what about when an adjective is used after the の? For example 質のいい製品 or something like that... don't remember if that's somewhere else or not, but I'd feel that would go along with the last usage
Does it always follow the pattern of [N]の[Adj] [N], and can it always/usually be replaced (not in that sentence, but if it were standalone, and not a modifying clause of a noun?
it's usually in the context of a phrase that would usually take が but then the noun/adjective clause is followed by a noun, if that's what you're referring to...
For the grammar point "The A one" I think the なの construction for なadjectives is quite misleading as in most cases な and い-adjectives only take の.
黒いカバンがある。ピンクのもある。(17.3 million google hits)Generally not ピンクなのもある (165k Google hits) as the grammar would suggest.
I wonder if anyone has a better source than Genki 1, chapter 10 to base this on and could perhaps clarify the grammar description? :)
What about the の that follows other particles? As in
友達からの手紙 --- a letter from my friend
東京までの切符 --- a ticket to Tokyo
母へのプレゼント --- a present for my mother
Wouldn't that belong to this topic, too? Or is it in a different section?
Sorry to bother. I just got started reading through the grammar section, so I don't know if it appears somewhere else on the site.
I would say, it falls under meaning #5 on the page. I will adjust the page today or tomorrow to reflect the additional information. Thanks!
Edit: it's up!
I'm trying to understand a usage of の which I can't make fit into any of the above meanings. I saw a sentence on another site sith a structure like "十時の電車です". I would have understood that to mean "it's the ten o'clock train", where の has meaning 4 above, but the provided translation is "the train is at ten o'clock". Is their translation incorrect, or is this a meaning that I'm just not grasping correctly?
Although I can imagine sth. like 日本からの鈴木さん (= Mr. Suzuki, who is from Japan) for #5, but in case of things, how is it different from #4? I'd like to see more verified example sentences for #5, please.
