I'm sorry... but that wasn't what I meant. That sentence doesn't fit into any categories in this page. It's neither 'even though' nor 'in order to', it's 'when', with some kind of comparison. Shouldn't you add other category for this grammar pattern?
Alright, I need to apologize - I have not given each of the posts you've made enough of my time to get a clear picture of things. I'm sorry for that, and I've added a month of free renshuu pro into your order history as a small sign of thanks for your patience.
That being said, back to the sentence.
To be honest, the English translation is not what I would give it if I was just shown the sentence without any context. I'd probably guess at "How can everyone go and have fun (play/etc) even though you're all working?
But that aside, given the original translation, I could certainly see it as "even though everyone else is working?" as an alternate translation that captures the same meaning.
Still, though, I feel like that would fall under this pages first definition - that is, displaying a clause that is contrary to what the speaker expects. Everyone else is working, so to the speaker, it seems unfair/not expected that they would be able to go out.
I don't think "when" is the best entry for in if it's being put into a grammar dictionary, simply because it wouldn't provide the framing for "when" that is needed.
It's kind of like a lot of Japanese I see that once has a single Japanese phrase, but could cover many different English translations, all of which are contextually valid. However, it would cause trouble when going back from English to Japanese, because you'd need to be careful to capture the nuance of the sentence.
Were we given "How can I go and have fun when everybody else is working?" and asked to translate it to Japanese, my guess is that the majority of people would try to use something like 時, which would not do nearly as good of a job as のに does.
Sorry for going back and forth, but I don't think these things necessarily have a single, definitive answer (or place) to which they would belong, but in my opinion, it can go in the "even though/despite" meaning on this page.
No need to apologize, really. ^_^ I just want to discuss and know exactly what do you think about it. But thanks for the 'gift', I will try to put it into use.
Well, I'm not sure which is right or wrong, but this my understanding based on what is written in the original page.
This expression is kind of idiomatic, so it will hardly makes sense if we translate it literally. We have to put it in another words.
Everybody else is working(, so)
「どうして遊びに行ける？」- doesn't mean an ability, but possibility.
How can I go and have fun (leaving them, instead of it I should help them, right?)
"Even though everybody else is working, how can I (be able to or possible) go?" - this translation doesn't make sense, in any way.
In short, the sentence means,
"Everyone is working, so its obvious that I cannot leave them and have fun for myself." - it's an opposing statement
For instance, perhaps someone told you "Can you just leave?"
The のに was translated to 'while' or 'when' because they are the close in meaning and fit. It also a kind of comparison between two contradict events, working' and 'playing', which is the reason it is associated to と比べ.
I've tried to make my own sentence based on this (in my previous comment) to
make it more evident. The third translation felt a bit off to
So if we were put this expression into the first definition, wouldn't it be wrong? The nuance is different and we can't translate it as 'even though' either.
One note is that 大辞泉 cannot be wrong, even if there is any, it can't be significant.
Seems better. Just one more thing, if there is no need to add another category, shouldn't additional (advanced usage) explanation be added instead? Since this usage need specific context, i.e. opposing statement toward something else.
Based on what I understood from 大辞泉, the general usage always imply either surprise feeling or complaint. On the other hand, the aforementioned usage is more like opposing statement, rather than complaint. If we don't include the explanation, no one will aware about this specific usage.
Sorry for the delay. Went ahead and expanded out the notes a little bit, based on our discussion/examples, and some other sources I looked into. I noticed you had added a usage note - feel free to add example sentences within your note if you feel it will help explain the point.
I have a quick question. I'm reading a book and a character poutily exclaims: もう一年早く生まれてたら同学年だったのに
Is this probably falling under "often used to mark a complaint or negative viewpoint about a situation," or might I be missing something? For more context, her friends are both a grade higher so she missed out on spending an extra year with them in their current school.
I wonder if the second definition should not just be expanded a bit to show that. All that is *really* happening is not のに, but の (nominalizing the verb phrase before it) and に the particle. That would better cover the usage already in there, since instead of "in order to", it would be "when X is done", Y (which would include listing something necessary for doing X)