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This topic is tied to the below grammar expression in the grammar library.
のに 
1. Even though A; in spite of A
  している のに キス    された  
Even though we're engaged she wouldn't let me kiss her.
2. In order to A; in the process of doing A
Only verbs of volition can be used with this pattern.
      びに   のに いつも くっついて行った  
I always went along with my older brothers to play.
Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese > Grammar Library Talk

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Years Studied: ほぼ3
Studying: N4
Level: 1, : 99

I'm sorry... but that wasn't what I meant. That sentence doesn't fit into any categories in this page. It's neither 'even though' nor 'in order to', it's 'when', with some kind of comparison. Shouldn't you add other category for this grammar pattern?

0
6 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

Got it!


https://www.renshuu.org/grammar/130/%E3%81%AE%E3%8...


This is the actual grammar pattern. の (it is one of the ones on that page).


The の changes it into a noun, after which it can be followed by a number of particles (の、が、は、を) are the most common. Since it doesn't always bind with the の, it can go on the page linked above!

0
6 years ago
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Years Studied: ほぼ3
Studying: N4
Level: 1, : 99

You sure about it? That doesn't seem right to me.


いているのに,どうしてびにける? How can I go and have fun when everybody else is working?


Please refer to the original page. There, its meaning is associated to "...とくらべ", but it sounds more like 'while' and 'when'.


Another example,

れられているのにいてはいられるかよ!

1) How can I be composed while my comrades being beaten one by one!

2) Don't you ever think that I can settle down when my comrades being beaten one by one!

2) Do you think I can calm down even though my comrades being beaten one by one!?


What do you think?

0
6 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

Alright, I need to apologize - I have not given each of the posts you've made enough of my time to get a clear picture of things. I'm sorry for that, and I've added a month of free renshuu pro into your order history as a small sign of thanks for your patience.


That being said, back to the sentence.


To be honest, the English translation is not what I would give it if I was just shown the sentence without any context. I'd probably guess at "How can everyone go and have fun (play/etc) even though you're all working?


But that aside, given the original translation, I could certainly see it as "even though everyone else is working?" as an alternate translation that captures the same meaning.


Still, though, I feel like that would fall under this pages first definition - that is, displaying a clause that is contrary to what the speaker expects. Everyone else is working, so to the speaker, it seems unfair/not expected that they would be able to go out.


I don't think "when" is the best entry for in if it's being put into a grammar dictionary, simply because it wouldn't provide the framing for "when" that is needed.


It's kind of like a lot of Japanese I see that once has a single Japanese phrase, but could cover many different English translations, all of which are contextually valid. However, it would cause trouble when going back from English to Japanese, because you'd need to be careful to capture the nuance of the sentence.


Were we given "How can I go and have fun when everybody else is working?" and asked to translate it to Japanese, my guess is that the majority of people would try to use something like , which would not do nearly as good of a job as のに does.


Sorry for going back and forth, but I don't think these things necessarily have a single, definitive answer (or place) to which they would belong, but in my opinion, it can go in the "even though/despite" meaning on this page.

0
6 years ago
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Years Studied: ほぼ3
Studying: N4
Level: 1, : 99

No need to apologize, really. ^_^ I just want to discuss and know exactly what do you think about it. But thanks for the 'gift', I will try to put it into use.


Well, I'm not sure which is right or wrong, but this my understanding based on what is written in the original page.


いているのに,どうしてびにける?

This expression is kind of idiomatic, so it will hardly makes sense if we translate it literally. We have to put it in another words.


いているのに、」

Everybody else is working(, so)


「どうしてびにける?」- doesn't mean an ability, but possibility.

How can I go and have fun (leaving them, instead of it I should help them, right?)


Meanwhile,

"Even though everybody else is working, how can I (be able to or possible) go?" - this translation doesn't make sense, in any way.


In short, the sentence means,

"Everyone is working, so its obvious that I cannot leave them and have fun for myself." - it's an opposing statement


For instance, perhaps someone told you "Can you just leave?"


The のに was translated to 'while' or 'when' because they are the close in meaning and fit. It also a kind of comparison between two contradict events, working' and 'playing', which is the reason it is associated to とべ.


I've tried to make my own sentence based on this (in my previous comment) to make it more evident. The third translation felt a bit off to me, though.

れられているのにいてはいられるかよ!


So if we were put this expression into the first definition, wouldn't it be wrong? The nuance is different and we can't translate it as 'even though' either.


One note is that cannot be wrong, even if there is any, it can't be significant.

0
6 years ago
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Years Studied: 13
Level: 1, : 947

I would say, since they're contrasting actions (working/having fun), I would put it in the 1st category:


"How can I go have fun despite everyone else working?"


のに being so versatile, it's very hard to pin down in translation.

0
6 years ago
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Years Studied: ほぼ3
Studying: N4
Level: 1, : 99

Seems better. Just one more thing, if there is no need to add another category, shouldn't additional (advanced usage) explanation be added instead? Since this usage need specific context, i.e. opposing statement toward something else.


Based on what I understood from , the general usage always imply either surprise feeling or complaint. On the other hand, the aforementioned usage is more like opposing statement, rather than complaint. If we don't include the explanation, no one will aware about this specific usage.

0
6 years ago
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

Sorry for the delay. Went ahead and expanded out the notes a little bit, based on our discussion/examples, and some other sources I looked into. I noticed you had added a usage note - feel free to add example sentences within your note if you feel it will help explain the point.

0
6 years ago
Level: 1, : 1

I have a quick question. I'm reading a book and a character poutily exclaims: もうまれてたらだったのに

Is this probably falling under "often used to mark a complaint or negative viewpoint about a situation," or might I be missing something? For more context, her friends are both a grade higher so she missed out on spending an extra year with them in their current school.

1
6 years ago (Edited 6 years ago.)
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

Right - it's like "If only I had been born a year earlier, we would have been in the same grade year" - so definitely a complaint.

0
6 years ago
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Years Studied: ???
Studying: JLPT N2/N1 -------- 44 Games Completed in Japanese
Level: 110, : 345

the example sentence under のに 2 seems wrong:
びにくのにもくっいてった。
I always went along with my older brothers to play.

should be removed, unless I'm mistaken

0
1 year ago
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Years Studied: ???
Studying: JLPT N2/N1 -------- 44 Games Completed in Japanese
Level: 110, : 345

sorry for the consecutive post, but this is unrelated and came up just now: this page is missing a のに usage :)
https://kotobank.jp/word/%E3%81%AE%E3%81%AB-597141

1 …に。…に。「るのにえておこう」

hm4wdmkwttwq63byqe0tqat0v.png

I think this image shows the usage as well

0
1 year ago
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

I wonder if the second definition should not just be expanded a bit to show that. All that is *really* happening is not のに, but の (nominalizing the verb phrase before it) and に the particle. That would better cover the usage already in there, since instead of "in order to", it would be "when X is done", Y (which would include listing something necessary for doing X)

1
1 year ago
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Years Studied: ごろしましたけど、めたと、けた
Studying: Japanese, Korean, and Living life
Level: 321, : 150

For the quiz sentence:

| むのにじゃまだから、テレビけしてくれないか.

the above sentence is being tied to the second meaning:

In order to A; in the process of doing A

This is incorrect, and it's been explained correctly by マイコー as "の (nominalizing the verb phrase before it) and に the particle".

What's the correct way to submit an error report for this quiz sentence or make a suggestion about this?

0
7 months ago
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Site admin
Level: 141, : 7,149

I can handle it from here, thanks! In the future, you can:

1. Tap the ? mark at the top of the app/site, then file a quiz report from there. That's the easiest way to get the data to me to fix it!

0
7 months ago
avatar
Years Studied: ごろしましたけど、めたと、けた
Studying: Japanese, Korean, and Living life
Level: 321, : 150

I can handle it from here, thanks! In the future, you can:

1. Tap the ? mark at the top of the app/site, then file a quiz report from there. That's the easiest way to get the data to me to fix it!

Thanks for the tip, Michael, and thank you for looking into the issue kao_great.png

0
7 months ago
Getting the posts


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