掲示板 Forums - Study library, step back

It might also help to let you know why I made some of the design decisions that I did.

1. The previous study center was too complicated for too many users. Even with a visual introduction, users complained of complexity of the center, how many clicks it would take to get to a single quiz, etc. Getting to your saved/often used lessons was non-intuitive, and there were too many users who ran up upon the study center and simply stopped using the site without trying a quiz. This is the primary reason for the renewal.

2. The site's materials were growing too numerous to display in longer and longer scroll lists, especially for mobile users.

3. The study library had an underpowered search mechanic, when most study sites are turning to search only for accessing lists.

As I see it, the older (current) version is not without its merits, of course. But if (and I'm throwing out rough numbers here), 10 people out of 100 start to use it and find it useful/convenient, 10 people use it and don't care for it, but 80 people just stare at it before moving onto another site, then the site cannot stick to a design that is not helping more users.

That being said, I'm extremely open to direct criticism and suggestions you have! renshuu is an extremely small company, so I have the benefit of making changes and adjustments more quickly than larger outfits.

Thanks!

Thanks for spelling out your thoughts for me. I can definitely respond better verbally as well as consider possible changes to the design.

I totally get the low numbers of people who just don't have the motivation, or energy, or whatever. What I have noticed in particular with renshuu is that the people that do make it through the "initial stage" of the site tend to be really impressed with the depth of information, level of control via settings/options, etc. I personally feel that the strongest elements of renshuu are ones that are not obvious at a glance, or can be easily explained via a few words or phrases. Because of this, I've (for many years now) felt compelled to stay "yes, the site is great and I'm proud of it, but you just have to give it some time to see what it can do" To pull out a single example, the ability to personalize the display of any word in the site based on your personal kanji knowledge so you get words/sentences displayed at your level - this is something I've found hard to explain to users without just having them see it.

I do understand that the quick in-and-out of most users is common across many sites, but I've had people (long-term users of the site, family members, etc.) try to show the site to others in the past, and they've had many instances, and even when someone was actively trying to show them the site, there was a lot of pushback.

Even if it's not me and it's them, I still would like to continue working on the interface to reduce the barrier/usage as much as possible (while retaining the level of settings for those interested in that fine control).

Alright, so to your specific points:

1. I think with your visibility point, the main issue is that the old site made it so you could see (depending on how many levels you clicked down) a larger number of lessons visible on a single page (without scrolling) - would this be accurate? Do be honest, I'm still really on the fence about the individual lesson layout, especially with the "preview" that shows 4-6 terms included in that lesson.

Perhaps, similar to the "View" toggle on term lists, there could be something like a low/medium/high level of detail for the study center, and if you crank it down to low, it would remove a lot of the extra data and get more stuff on a single page. What do you think?

2. As you have probably seen, the vocab/grammar/kanji tabs are available in some of the views. There were two reasons I split grammar into it's own icon:

1)I wanted more visibility for it, because the thousands of grammar questions are one of the more unique parts of the site, as they are all hand made and not something you can find in varying forms on a hundred other sites.

2)Because there is a limited number of categories (the 5 jlpt levels, and then a few special categories such as counters, passive verbs, etc), It felt like putting them behind a search bar would hide them.

That being said, the decision was very much an "ugh, I don't like this, but it seems like the best choice at the moment." I'm still very open to reblending it with vocab/grammar so it isn't considered a "special group" if I can decide a way that I am satisfied with.

3. I'm not planning on elevating the vocab/kanji/grammar "above" the lessons in the way it was originally set up. I can certainly consider a different way to style the landing page data, but this part will remain the same. (ps: I couldn't figure out any intuitive icons for vocab/kanji/grammar)

4. I think in terms of "we have this much", it's a subjective call. I could always put a marker with the total number of lessons available at the very top, as a "hey, look how much we have", but I've also had users who were turned off by the initial amount of data available on the screen.

I feel like there are some potential for some minor changes that could make things a lot more inviting, thanks to your comments and criticisms. I'd like to hear what you think about the above points.

Thanks!

Just a general comment as a new user, I find the site pretty amazing and I recommend it to people on WaniKani, but I do find it quite complicated to navigate and figure out how to do what. Basically all I have done is create a Schedule and add the vocab for the Genki chapters I want to study, but it took a bit of time to figure out how to do this, and now I can't remember or figure out how I did it.

Maybe you just need to guide new people, lead them by the hand as it were. Otherwise they might get overwhelmed and wander off to Memrise or Anki (Anki is horrible but lots of people seem to use it, and Memrise is annoying in that it has zero custom features) which are inferior but well known. One problem I had was simply knowing that I should create a Schedule. I come from Wanikani where all that exists is one great big schedule. You walk in, hop on, and cling on.

Then I had to figure out how to add the stuff, and there are several versions of the same thing, i.e. Genki 1. Some only start at chapter 3 for some reason. Another thing that confuses me is the seemingly random 'includes clapters'. This makes it look like it only has some of the chapters.

A lot of people study Genki and will want a schedule with the chapters they have read, so will be trying to do what I did, so anything in the way of instructions would be good. Even now, I can't see where you create a schedule, and can't remember how I did it. I think you need something that will grab new users and tell them exactly what to do to get started. Perhaps a 'must read' section in the FAQ of basics. I can't see any instructions on how to create a schedule, or even a thing to click on to do it. The FAQ section for schedules does not tell you how to make a schedule. It's not user friendly, at least not first time user, and people won't come back if they find it too confusing.

Edgar - I'm terribly sorry. I had read your message when you first wrote it, but I had neglected to write back (I thought I had).

1. The grammar icon is indeed tricky, and as you said, extremely subjective. Anything more than a 1-3 characters, and then you're making something that might not be any smaller than just writing "grammar".

2. In the past, I have considered (and I believe I tried at one point, years ago) doing hiragana for vocab, and kanji (字, I think) for kanji characters. The problem I came up with is that even that is extremely subjective - even if we go ahead and assume the user can tell the difference.

The issue I thought couldn't be avoided is that kanji characters are, well, kanji characters. When most people are familiar with flashcard based studies, seeing hiragana vs. kanji could simply be "oh, I'm doing hiragana <-> definition, or kanji <-> definition". In other words, "words written in kanji" and "kanji characters" can be easily mixed up if there is not enough clarity in the marking.

It is definitely a tricky issue.

I am working on a slightly simpler display for the lesson lists, although I need to test it on mobile. I also think I can blend grammar into the search panel, by offering "grammar" as one of the most commonly searched for items. Would be the same number of clicks to get to the grammar materials, and it would benefit searches like "JLPT", as that would bring back vocab, kanji, and grammar from the jlpt. Hopefully I'll get both changes out by the end of the weekend.

I don't actually know what black and grey means, not sure what the difference is. I just know the vocab at the start of each chapter.

"However, it is what seems like an eternal battle to match simplicity with, as you said, the level of customization that renshuu has that others don't."

You can do it! All I need is an instruction on how to make a schedule in this instance, it should be the first item in the schedules section of the FAQ. Later you can make a shortcut or whatever. You say not everyone uses them but for people using Wanikani, Anki or Memrise life is all about working to a schedule, especially on Wanikani which takes it to the extreme. Schedules keep you coming back every day (several times a day on Wanikani). Wanikani is the master of that - if you don't keep at it you are made to suffer! I wouldn't want another thing like that, one is enough (!), but I do like to come on here and continue where I left off with a set list of vocab (that I can add to of course) and see my progress. Maybe you can do that directly in the study library (I don't know) but I like the idea of having it as a schedule, it seems more concrete. In fact as well as an instruction on how to make a schedule, you should have something explaining exactly what a schedule is, what it's purpose is. Maybe people don't use them so much because they don't know what they are or how to make them.

Oh, I see what you mean. I use Wanikani for kanji and just learn the vocab at the start of each chapter so as to be able to do the exercises. If I know a kanji I read it; if I don't, I just use the furigana (and a magnifying glass!).

OK I just tried to make a schedule but could not find anything doing a quiz. Then I noticed something called SCHEDS on the left in pale grey under Study Library. I clicked on this and at the top right is a button marked Make a Schedule. This is what I have been looking for. All you need to do is put this in the FAQ at the top of the Schedules section.

eg 'How do I created a Schedule?'

'Go to Study Library and click on SCHEDS on the left hand side. Click on Make a Schedule. Select Vocab, Grammar or Kanji. Give it a name and choose a source. For vocab, choose 'Select All' or select individual chapters of a text book.' etc.

There is an entry under Mastery Schedules I just noticed (is a Mastery Schedule different from a Schedule?)

[Edit: I realise now they are the same thing, I assume so anyway. I think you should just call them Schedules and have this at the top. How to make a Schedule is the first thing you need to know about Schedules.]

It says:

"How do I make a mastery schedule?

Making a schedule only takes a few seconds! First, go to the Study Center (under Learn).

In either your Bookbag or the Renshuu Library, select the materials you would like to put in your schedule.

Last, click the ''Make schedule'' button at the bottom of the page, and you''re done!"

I couldn't follow these instructions. I don't know what a Bookbag is, and I couldn't see anywhere in the Library to add materials to a schedule. The only way I've found is the way I described above.

You will get 10x more people paying for Renshuu if you grab them when they land and tell them exactly what they need to do.

Small update - the genki listings is much more organized now. I've pushed the 1st edition to the bottom of the results with a marker about it being a previous version, and I've renamed the 2nd edition materials to be clearer.