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Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



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Elisabeth
Level: 1571

Hello! I'm a little confused about kanji 'ame' and the way it is written. Renshuu says it has 14 strokes, but shows stroke order with 13 strokes. On the other hand, jisho.org says it has 13 strokes, but shows stroke order with 14 strokes... I guess the number of strokes changed with time, but which way of writing it is considered correct now? Does anyone know? :)

0
8 years ago
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I hope somebody with more insight will answer your question. This is not one of the Jōyō kanji. So I don't know if there is a "correct" version. The variant with 13 strokes is certainly more modern than the one with 14 strokes.

As for fonts this is one of 168 kanji for which the recommended renderings changed in 2004 (see Wikipedia and Kakijun).


E. g. iOS has very few modern Japanese fonts and when you look up this kanji on renshuu with iOS/macOS you get two different (font) renderings:

65DHFus.jpgUGJJLCd.png


It would be nice of course if the number of strokes were consistent with the stroke order diagrams ;-)

2
8 years ago
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solostyle
Level: 13

The strokes shown on jisho.org are wrong. No one writes the left hand radical in this way. That accounts for the extra stroke in the stroke order diagram, though it correctly says 13 strokes.

y3dbnzef7knvf08s7tfqt4z55.png

Actually now looking at the whole stroke order up to that point, it is not ordered correctly at all. I'm really disappointed.

hca7ptg73u0g53s5xe3k0bcq6.png


It should rather be:

iwb0bji8v6qsic48b0xhfd8dz.png


1
8 years ago
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gdartfow
Level: 1869
I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them wrong, but there are definitely discrepancies between the reported stroke count and stroke order listed on the site.
7dukz8ua6k5jnrnf7f4sqesdn.png is the modern simplified form of bqqz44ui6ezphaaiep5jnuxun.png and so, in some cases, both can appear as alternatives.
As ドイツの mentioned, there are plenty of characters for which there is no single proper way to write them.
By the way, has a similar problem and is in the jōyō (page 9 of even mentions it as having a variant):

fxnhfazkn0kc52wkvnvpaex3d.png

4
8 years ago
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EDIT: see below

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8 years ago
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@マイコー Something is wrong the editor. I cannot enter the text I wanted to. And now I cannot even edit/delete my post.
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8 years ago
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マイコー
Level: 292

Not sure what caused it to barf, but I chopped off a few characters, and it is displaying more or less properly now.


I just pushed an update to the stroke order files that fixed a number of issues. Unfortunately, these issues of strokes being combined or not combined seems to be inside the original set of data produced by kanjivg.tagaini.net - I am still looking into it. The project unfortunately does not look like updates to the data file are going through - the last commit to the github was quite some time ago. I might need to go in and make the changes myself, but that's going to possibly require a lot of one-by-one editing. I need to get a grasp on the extent of the issue - is it affecting 10, 100, or 500 kanji?

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8 years ago
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The issue seems to be caused by the charcter for bqqz44ui6ezphaaiep5jnuxun.png (found in the quote above)

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8 years ago
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gdartfow
Level: 1869

Yes, I also encountered that. Everything after that character (2967F in unicode) got chopped off.

However, I was able to delete my original post and replace it with an image instead. I just assumed the forums don't support the entire range...

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8 years ago
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I was able to delete my post, too. Then I started a new post and funny things happened. But now I guess I just didn't see the edit/delete icons because my browser window wasn't wide enough (and the post was strangely formatted). So I'll try again with the image ...


Actually there is another kanji like this in the (new) jōyō list: . Both entered jōyō in 2010 (the version with 2036 kanji).
I'm a bit confused now too, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_jōyō_kanji#c... reads

The 5 kanji use one of the radicals / bqqz44ui6ezphaaiep5jnuxun.png. As stated on the first page of the official Jōyō Kanji list, although the officially correct form of those characters uses the forms: / bqqz44ui6ezphaaiep5jnuxun.png, it is permissible to use instead the forms / , which are indicated in square brackets in the official list.
So while is the modern version, the correct one is bqqz44ui6ezphaaiep5jnuxun.png?

BTW: renshuu (still) seems to be based on the 1981 jōyō kanji list. E. g. there is no information about the school level of the readings for these kanji. Does anybody know an online resource for this classification for the current jōyō kanji list? (The readings are included in mentioned above but not the level.)


pz4qtiiig6070hbhfzmabkvfo.png



@マイコー I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. But if you want to make the number of strokes consistent with the stroke order diagram you only have to count the number of strokes and I'm sure you already did that when you created the stroke order diagrams. Different number of stroke counts are likely to exist if there are more than two svg files for the same character, e. g.

  • 098f4-Hyougai.svg
  • 098f4-HyougaiKaisho.svg
  • 098f4.svg
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8 years ago
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マイコー
Level: 292

I'm actually not using the svgs, but the original xml file. I haven't yet had a chance to see exactly how the xml file is splitting up the data for ones like, as you showed, have variants.


All in all, a lot of things regarding the kanji data need to be updated, and this is one the main things I am working on in this minor version update to the site. Will have more information as I get things changed!

2
8 years ago
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With xml file you mean kanjivg-20160426.xml.gz? I'm not sure if this file really contains the variants.


As for the number of kanji that have variants with different numbers of strokes, I scanned the data in kanjivg-20160426-all.zip and found the following 79 kanji:


05026, 050c5, 05132, 0514e, 0537f, 053a9, 053df, 05618, 0564c, 05835, 05a29, 05c60, 05fbd, 0633d, 06357, 06372, 06666, 06840, 0685d, 0698a, 06994, 069cc, 06a0b, 06adb, 06b4e, 06c72, 06c9b, 06f23, 07015, 0701e, 07026, 07058, 07149, 071d0, 0724c, 0727d, 07511, 078d4, 07941, 07947, 079b0, 07a17, 07a7f, 07b08, 07bb8, 07c2a, 07e4b, 0817f, 08258, 083b1, 0845b, 084ec, 085af, 085f7, 08755, 08836, 08877, 08956, 08b0e, 08ced, 08fbb, 08fbf, 08fc2, 08fc4, 08fe6, 09017, 09019, 09022, 0903c, 09041, 0905c, 09061, 091a4, 0939a, 09453, 098f4, 09905, 0990c, 09957

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8 years ago
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マイコー
Level: 292

It seems to contain some, but not all the variants. Fortunately, I've knocked down a number of other issues as of late, so I can put more time into this!

0
8 years ago
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