掲示板 Forums - There are TWO ways to learn Japanese grammar (and I wish I knew that sooner T_T)

Seriously, it's killing me and I want to scream it everywhere -_-
There are at least two main way to learn Japanese grammar when learning Japanese as a foreign language. Or, should I say, two systems to represent Japanese grammar.
Warning: from this point, I will not be fair or objective toward one of them because I hate that one :v

The two systems are:
- Japanese grammar from a Occidental point of view
- Japanese grammar from a Japanese point of view

And the main one that almost every resources teaches you is... the first one. Yeah, if you did use those resources up until this point, you did not learn Japanese grammar but a messed up version that used concept that doesn't exist in Japanese. I warned you that I would not be fair or objective toward one of them. And a good part of what I'll say next will be complain about that one. So if you're on the other side and want to say something to balance that to make it more fair or objective, you're more than welcome. But if you want to just dismiss what I say, I will declare a holy war and start a crusade if need be è_é.

So first thing, I want to say, that's (probably) not always a bad thing (I'm trying to be objective here even if I know I will not be for long). That's not a bad IF you are good at grammar in your OWN language. In that case, I can see why it could be interesting to learn that way (and that's also probably one of the main reason why it is taught that way). If you know perfectly your own grammar, then you can bridge more easily to the concept/system of the other language. If you're that good, you will easily spot the difference or understand it when someone point it for you. And by understanding, I mean understanding BOTH the scope and limit of each concept in BOTH language. But what if you're not able? What happens if you never studied seriously the grammar of your own language and you're "just" able to speak without being able to explain consciously why you speak like that? Like, I don't know, a lot of natives in every country in the world?
Well in that case, you're left with two choice:
1) Re-learn the grammar of your own language and mastered it
2) Just don't and end up with a lot mess up concept in your head that will slow your progress until you've been immersed enough in Japanese to self-correct that mess.

I tried 1). But I failed. So, I ended up with 2).
I failed because on almost every damn page of the textbook that I used, there was a good damn pseudo-explanation trying to explain the difference between the occidental concept and the Japanese one. And that just made me give up. I could have try more and retry. But I don't have two life and there were other that I wanted to learn. Building a perfect understanding of BOTH language is just a huge cognitive load and a competence that I don't. If I ever wanted to teach Japanese one, yeah, that would be needed. But that was not my objective and still isn't.

Later, I tried again with different resources that were less heavy on the theory but even with them, it was still problematic. I will just take a few example to develop on that. And let's just with one of the basic one that a lot of people struggle with (including me before).

How to decompose a Japanese sentence?
Well, a basic tip that work most of the time is just: Every time you see a particle, you can cut the sentence after that particle. The FUNDAMENTAL building block of Japanese sentences is [word + particle]. And once you understand that a lot of things become much much easier to understand. You see all those pattern with a particle in the middle that you have been learning? There don't exist in Japanese. There are Japanese expression/chunk of sentences force into english concept/expression. Particle are attached to what on their left/what's before them. And then, they add information to something else in the sentence. And note that I didn't say on they right or after them. I said "in the sentence". And it's important to know that because later when you're will be talking in Japanese and someone start to completely break those "pattern", you will be confused as hell because of that. Eventually you will be able to recognize them but in the same time, you will have to deconstruct and unlearn a lot them to reconstruct that properly. Which is simply adding work to something that already hard enough. Let's move onto another thing that annoy as much as that one when I discovered it.

Japanese is a SOV (Subject-Object-Verb) language
NO, it's freaking not. Almost half of the time, it's not, it's more of OVS one :v. And even that is not true. Why? Because the only thing needed are the particle. They are the one which tell you which thing is what. And once, you know that, you can construct Japanese with almost any pattern you want. But if you're not conscious of that, the first time you're gonna listen to casual Japanese, you're gonna be pissed that all the studying you've done so far is, I won't say useless but almost (at least at the feeling level :v). Funny thing too, Japanese is also a SA (Subject-"Adjective") sometime. Didn't heard of it? Well, it's a thing and also one the fundamental type of sentences in Japanese. SOV and the other are a system to classify language that worked more or less for occidental languages. Because the order of the word define/indicates the function in those languages. But for Japanese? It don't work that well because the order doesn't define the function. That's just western classification force into something that doesn't fit well. Each time, you learn a fixed grammar pattern, you'll learn later that it's not that fixed and have to re circuit your brain to really "think" in Japanese. Anyway, I'm done on that. Let's move onto the last point (among a lot of other).

Japanese "conjugation"...
The one that annoyed the most recently... To put it simply, it doesn't exist. Or at least, it doesn't in term of the western concept of "conjugation". And it's another example where Japanese is forced into western grammar box. And the most basic example is the -masu form. If you have started to learn Japanese, you've already one of the basic conjugation: take a verb, remove the last part and add -masu at the end right? Well big news, masu is verb. Or more exactly, a helper verb. And a verb that can be "conjugated" too. You probably seen on renshuu multiple time too when moving the cursor over a sentence (the verb + helper verb pattern). Well it's that thing. And it's like one a basic operation that you do when you "conjugate" things in Japanese. Those are building block where your remove a part, stuck another, remove another part, stuck another part, etc.
I remember a discussion with a Japanese friend where I asked about one of the way expressing "have to" in Japanese and more precisely about "Verb (negative form) + なければ + ならない". When he started to explain, I though he was going to separate it in 3 part like in those English explanation... But no. He started to cut the expression almost every kana and I couldn't understand a single thing. Like, yeah, I'm somewhat starting to be able to talk in Japanese but I can't even ask question in Japanese because my "internal" representation is so different from the one they use.



To conclude, I don't want to say that you should learn that way. I'm not a linguist, a grammarian or a teacher and those debate are far beyond my reach. I didn't spend a long time thinking about that compared to them and don't want to pretend that I did. And if there are some people that are better than me on those subject, feel free to correct what I said or explain the advantage/disadvantage of each way.
But if you're like me, you are not conscious how about the rule of your own language (for a lot of reason that are normal) or simply struggling with the way grammar is taught, just give it a try. Honestly, it's so much simpler for me. I don't want to say there are no problem. And also can't. Because I'm not an expert. But among them, there are some that conclude that you can learn Japanese without relying too much on the grammar of your own language. And I will leave the link of them if you want to check by yourself.
Organic Japanese with Cure Dolly
Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of those resources because the main "way" is too popular but oh well. Also, don't discourage by the format. Yeah, the quality of the sound is kinda bad and the format will maybe put you off but it's a really channel. Right now, it's my main source for learning Japanese grammar alongside learning Japanese grammar in Japanese directly. Funnily, it's easier for me that way than trying to learn it the other way at the where I am :v
But anyway, hope it will be useful for some of you and don't hesitate to share that channel if you find it useful (it's already on the discord btw, just hidden in the resources section).
And good luck with your studies whatever way you choose to use :D
Now, I'm going to watch some clip to relax cuz I spend way too much time on that :v. And being angry too. Is there a cure to being an angry french that talk/debate too much? Please send it to me if you know about it
- A angry french T_T
Bye bye, またね～

Wow man, that’s wild. As someone who doesn’t have any experience talking to a real human in Japanese, I believe you. I have been told, not just by you, but by other people, that the way that most people are taught, not js Japanese, but any language really, is not the most effective. And I’ve done a ton, like a TON of research, and I’ve found that your method is among the most effective ways to learn. But what I’ve found to be most effective, every book, essay video, you name it, has said to just start speaking, talking to a real person, as soon as possible. Immerse yourself in the language. Learn the very basic grammar rules, which can (usually) be translated well into English, and focus as much as you can on vocabulary. That way, any grammar you learn from native speakers is likely to be correct and u won’t have to start over again. But favoring the other side of the argument (or at least favoring renshuu), the stuff that マイコーさん is teaching and putting on renshuu is trustworthy as well. He’s been speaking Japanese for over 10 years now (I believe) and he lives in Japan (again, if I remember correctly) so he’s had probably a lot of interaction last with Japanese, and I don’t think that he would be giving us false info on Japanese. I think that your method is worth a shot, but like you said, no one is being forced or judged to use any specific method, so do what you believe works for you.

I hope this helps

Wow, what a rant. I sympathize completely and I hope you feel better having had a chance to unload what seems to be a lot of frustration. Hugs.

A couple of observations. (1) Indeed, Japanese is most certainly not SOV. If anything, it is free order, lacking a matrix verb in many sentences. Topic-Comment is the terminology I’m used to hearing for “subject-adjective.” I think it is a better choice for describing Japanese because Japanese distinguishes between the subject particle が and topic particle は. (2) There is a huge difference between pedagogical grammar (used for instruction) and observed grammar (what people actually say). IMO this a more useful way of thinking than occidental versus oriental.

Wow, what a rant. I really sympathize and hope you feel better having had a chance to unload what seems to be a lot of frustration. Hugs.

A couple of observations. (1) Indeed, Japanese is most certainly not SOV. If anything, it is free order, with no matrix verb in many sentences. (2) There is a huge difference between pedagogical grammar (used for instruction) and observed grammar (what people actually say). IMO this a more useful way of thinking than occidental versus oriental.

Yes, I'm an angry man xD
But thanks for the hug

Also, more than me, I hope that some will have less trouble by being aware of those sooner, try it if necessary and make their choices based on that :3

As for observation (2), that's precisely why I wanted to talk about that. The second way is also a pedagogical grammar. Just a different one. And even my argument may be based too much on observed grammar, what I wanted to say is just that is a different one that some people may appreciate more.

A first step is to be aware that there are (and there will be) plenty of grateful people out there whose trajectory in learning Japanese will take off amazingly thanks to your post. There is so much material that feels like the grammar lessons, that M Jourdain (le bourgeois gentilhomme) paid so much money to the Maître for. il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de m'avoir appris cela.

When I started to learn Japanese I wish I had had this post available - I've even seen a ridiculous book trying to parallel particles with articles such as those found in European languages - and I had to figure out on my own. I found helpful some english language material originally written for students of other Asian mothertongues, by the way.

However, I did not take the time to write a post, and you did.

You should now be a happy and proud Japanese-learning French.

I think the frustration you are feeling is completely legitimate, and probably felt by the majority of language learners.

Additionally, I am always thrilled to see when people find a learning method that jives with their needs and expectations.

That being said, I think it would be helpful to take what you (and everyone else has said) and step back and consider a few other elements that are vital factors in language learning, and may help you understand why so many materials are structured the way they are. I will most likely skip over a number of the points that you made, but it's mostly because I won't have the time to respond to everything at the level/depth it deserves.

1. As you noted repeatedly, you have a fair amount of anger and frustration with the grammar materials you've come into up until now, and I think that's worth talking about: how our emotions and feelings affect our learning. The truth of the matter is that, at least from my Western perspective (grew up in the US, most of my adult life in Japan), backed up by data I've picked up over the years, is that "failure" or "giving up" is, overwhelmingly, the most common end state of language learning. People just give up. It's too hard, it's too much, motivation was low...a hundred other things. But whether its students jumping into a 101 level class in a formal classroom, or someone picking up an app/textbook/YT channel because they want to learn, just about everyone gives up, despite having the initial desire to learn (some school classes are required, but not all, of course.

So, although it is not spoken about a lot (I have mentioned it numerous times in my discord events, and here in the forums), one of the main jobs of a resources (person, textbook, app, etc.) is to help the person NOT GIVE UP. This is particularly vital in the first few days or weeks of learning. Most people will not get even close to the level that you are at, where they are beginning to or have spend considerable time doing analysis on their own learning and trying to figure out how to do it better.

While I am greatly simplifying this for the sake of brevity, a lot of teaching methods make a lot more sense (I feel) when considering this. I'll use your "Japanese verbs do not have conjugation" as an example for this. I have (both as a learner, developer, and teacher) still feel that teaching "conjugation" in Japanese is extremely valuable. While, on the most technical level, it may not be 100% "accurate" (what is accurate, even? Are Japanese learners going to be tested on the grammatical breakdown of sentences if they visit Japan?), taking a concept (such as conjugation) that is more familiar than not and using it to help establish both a)understanding and b)a belief that *this language is learnable by me, the learner* is valuable.

For a beginner, getting the new language in a form that does NOT try and bridge at least some of the gaps with their L1 (native language) is going to raise the chance that the learner will give up.

In short, I'm trying to say that for some grammatical elements and concepts, a "less right" (by the viewpoint that you are taking) is going to help more learners continue to learn, which will give them more time to then break away and start to learn the L2 (target language) using the L2, which I feel is the end goal and hope of all learners, even if they do not realize it.

2. There are some concepts, though, that simply cannot be modeled in most L1s, though, and there is not a *ton* which can be done to lessen the blow. You and others brought up particles, and I'm really grateful to those who attend my discord learning events, because those have given me the chance to really evolve the language that I use when explaining those concepts, and how most of my regulars now have heard me speak dozens of times about how you simply cannot translate most of them into English - particles need to be seen as a job (or signpost) with a function, not a word that means another word in English.

I am luckier than most, though - I get groups of highly motivated (thank you!!) learners into my lessons - they come by choice, and they already had to jump through several hoops to get there (download renshuu, join the discord server, sign up for event, COME to event, etc.), so I am able to to dive into more teaching that does not sit "on top of" English grammar as a base for learning.

Most classrooms, textbooks, apps, etc., do not have that freedom, though. They have limited time, resources, mental energy, etc., and are trying to not only teach someone a language, but simply convince them to stick around long enough to realize that they (the student) are capable of learning, and want to continue doing so.

Disclaimer: While it may seems like I wrote that only out of frustration, it's not like it was a thought that I just had at the moment and it's not like I can't take a few step back to think =p

But even with that I can't agree with some of the point you said. I strongly agree this part:

But it's also the reason why I disagree with the other part. In particular that passage:

Is this still true when those resources simply gate-keep the entrance of language learning by putting a whole bunch of theoretical knowledge every 3 page (or even every page) in their textbook and basically saying: "If you don't know those concept, you can't learn another language"?
They are assuming that the learner have that knowledge. And if the case, yeah, it will work well. They will see quick progress that will prevent them from giving up. Because that theoretical knowledge will be a step-stone that will help them at each step that they will take.
But if they don't have that knowledge, they will just be remembered each time that they don't have that knowledge and they should have learned properly grammar at school if they ever wanted to learn another language. That's not the way to prevent those people to give up. What is good thing for some people may be also be a nightmare for some other.

Also, you need bridges between the L1 and the L2. But those bridges don't need to be heavily created of theoretical concept from the L1. And the channel that I shared used such bridges.

If you have some time to spare, I highly recommend checking it. Not for the method but for the comment section. Because the grateful comment that can be found on almost every video are probably the best example of some people not giving up with that alternative "way" and also my best argument.

On that note, it's too late here and even I wanted to talk about other aspect, I should just go to sleep... x)
Why does timezone exist really? ;_;

For the one that I have in my mind, it was by no mean a "bad" textbook. On the contrary, I still think it's a really good textbook. I could even compared the lesson (or section) to the renshuu lesson in term of quality (if you remove the limitation of it being textbook compared to an app/website like renshuu). It was also quite successful when it was publish, albeit a bit old, and written by a Japanese who learn french at quite a high level (I wish I could provide some screenshot but since it was in french, I don't think it will be useful unfortunately). It was also not, of course, perfect but for some people, it could still be a precious tool to learn. It even has a section on pitch accent!! Most of the other textbook didn't have anything on that at that time.

But still, not the one for me. Like you said, there is a huge range of textbooks and all of them are tailored for different peoples, different scenarios, with different ideas, etc. Even if I said, there are "two" ways of learning grammar at the beginning, it was by simplification. Not to ignore that huge diversity.

And on that aspect, ポールおじちゃん made a comment before that make think that I was maybe not really expressing correctly my though but besides the "heavy theoretical grammar" argument, another argument was the "order" in which Japanese grammar is presented. And that where the occidental vs oriental/Japanese dichotomy is also more apparent.

For example, in the resource that I shared, they start by introducing the 3 types of sentences that you can have in Japanese and more importantly, how there is always a が in a sentence. Even if it is hidden/omitted. And funnily enough, while I was reading on a grammar website in Japanese, they start with the exact same things (like shown bellow from the Japanese website that I'm reading).

And after they insist more on the fact Japanese is very flexible, how the subject can be remove, how you can you can mix those blocs as long as you have particle. They don't explain right away what those particles do. They just show that fundamental aspect of Japanese. Same for the conjugation, they just show how you can just change the stem ("configure" a bloc) to the i-stem, the a-stem, etc and then just stick another block. They also still don't explain what are each of the different conjugation. They are just preparing the ground for what is coming next.

On the other hand, other more "western-based" resources have a more "formulaic" approach (mix also with certain idea of what should be learn first). AはB for example. Or SOV. Those kind of thinking work well for western languages. Because the order of the word is important and necessary. And from that thinking, they can build more simple bridge to the L2. At first, at least.

It's a bit like taking a shortcut at first but later, that thinking will clash with how Japanese work. Inversely, starting directly may also be discouraging since learners have to deal with that "playfulness" and context-based thinking from the beginning. But if they can take the challenge, later, they will also have less problem and in turn be less prone to give up. Which one is the best? Neither like you said. It all depends on the person and their particular situation.

There are also smaller changes in the order of learning things. Like how は should not be learned first to avoid the regular confusion that people have with が. Or how ます should be learn later because it's an helper verb and not part of the basic. All those change can create more or less problem in the short or long term. And besides how easy it can be to learn in a particular order, there can be also other consideration. Like learning polite/formal speech at first is not a grammatical consideration in my opinion. It's more like "what are the learner going to do soon and what is going to be the more useful?". Well, a lot of them are student that may go to Japan, take a class with a Japanese teacher and will have to use polite speech (we can't have them use casual speech, that would problematic). As for casual speech, well they will make friends there and will learn casual speech with them. A perfect scenario!
I'm pretty sure some people had those kind of consideration when they made those resources.

But for me, for example, I don't need that. Because my main two sources of immersion are 1) Youtube and 2) Some japanese friends. And in both case, they use casual speech a lot. I'm still learning polite/formal speech of course. But what I need, right now, is a resource on casual spoken Japanese grammar, even more than the one I shared (because, omg, just on the contraction that would be a life saving resource). Ah and just before, I was talking that "playfulness" of Japanese. Well, "casual spoken japanese"... They threw their particles/blocks in every directions. Like even yesterday or the day before, I heard a sentence ending in を... never heard of that before. And I didn't mishear, it was a subtitle engrave in the video by a Japanese. So yeah, that resource fit better than others. My main drive, that prevent from giving up, are those, more than the method. Any method that can help me on those aspect is better in that regard.

Anyway, I talk too much again. But to conclude, the order in which grammar is learned is also one the reason that I did write that. And beyond that, if we could have something like a frequency list for grammar (based on for example spoken japanese), I'm sure those resources could be even more tailored to specific case. And, and, and, I should seriously stop now or I will continue for a few hours xD
Need to do other thing too x)
Bye bye

The book is simply called "Manuel de japonais, volume 1" by Kunio Kuwae. The first few pages are about pronunciation, hiragana and katakana, pitch accent, etc. There are here more to be used as reference.

Sorry for the quality, I'm really bad at taking picture. The first screenshot is the table of contents, the second is the first lesson of the book (most lesson are similar in format) and the last are exercises that you can found either at the end of each chapter or in between lesson. The book is also really rich in examples which I kinda appreciate more now because even if you don't understand the explanation, you can can still build that intuitive knowledge of Japanese. The balance between theory and practical application is pretty good. But even with that, it was still far appart and if you ask to define concept that I learned when I was 13 or 14, well, you will at most get a loose definition that I have no confidence in and at worst, no definition at all.

But still, I would recommend that book to some people.

@frndd Even when "full immersion" is not available (e.g. Latin) there is an objective of "I need to think closer to a native speaker".

@Shamugan thank you for the screenshots, it looks like a nice book and I will recommend it. Even in 2024 there are old people who aren't very comfortable with the internet, such alternate old-style resources can be precious in specific situations.