Vocabulary dictionary

Kanji dictionary

Grammar dictionary

Sentence lookup

test
 

Forums - Sentences expressing "allow myself to"

Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese



avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782

This came up in a vocabulary quiz, but I'm interested in the grammar. I understand the individual words, but I don't understand how the sentence works.

First of all, what is the context? Who might the speaker and the listener be in this sentence? The speaker seems to have some sort of authority, but is using polite speech as well.

Also, I'd like to understand the omitted parts of the sentence.

させる (Causative form)

Subject (causer/permission giver): Speaker

Actor (noun that is supposed to precede the に particle) : Speaker? Listener?

いただく

Subject (receiver): Speaker

Giver: Listener? Speaker?




I searched the sentence library using the terms "allow myself" and found the above sentence as well. I have the same questions for this. In addition, why is たい added? Why does the speaker have to want (たい) to do something that they are allowing themselves to do?

させる (Causative form)

Subject (causer/permission giver): Speaker

Actor (noun that is supposed to precede the に particle) : Speaker? Listener?

いただく

Subject (receiver): Speaker

Giver: Listener? Speaker?


If the listener is not instrumental in an "allow myself" situation, am I right that a different type of sentence would be constructed? For example, if I wanted to say, "Just for today, I'll allow myself to eat cake," and it's not the listener's cake, how would I go about it?

0
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar

させていただきたい is "allow me to do (An action or process) that I want to do". So, essentially the speaker (mostly you): a) want someone's explicit permission or b) want to inform someone politely that you're taking implicit permission.

As for "allow myself to eat cake", I don't think it fits in this grammar pattern, as you're both the cake requester and the cake owner (hopefully). This is you casually informing to your kith or kin that you're relaxing your diet for a day, I think and so, no 'permission' is needed from the listener. If you're talking to yourself, then may be it works kinda, but even then it won't be part of this grammar pattern IMO. A simpler construction like: だけで ケーキを べるとう will suffice, no?

2
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
バカ
Level: 206

It's commonly heard in formal settings, such as airports or official establishments, where staff members interact with customers or the public. When a security officer or staff member uses this phrase, they're essentially saying 'I will humbly receive permission to check/inspect.

The complexity comes from several Japanese linguistic concepts working together:
First there is いただくliterally meaning 'to receive'
Unlike English where receiving requires a physical object, Japanese allows 'receiving' of actions (saseru = indicating making or allowing) and therefor permissions. Think of it as 'being granted the honor to do something' (seemingly without a direct giver). Combined it creates the nuance of 'being allowed to receive permission'.
In practice, it's used when the speaker needs to perform their duty but wants to show maximum respect and politeness. For example:
Security officer: 「おさせていただきます」

The second one I would formulate as: だけは、(あなたの)ケーキをべさせていただきます(ね)

Maybe this clears it up a bit, if you have follow-up questions let me know.

Short side note: In these examples you do not necessarily receive proper permission as the action being conducted is inevitable. いただく is used to soften it a bit. There is no real permission granted here. Literally: "I receive making it so I can look at your ID" -> "I proceed doing...".

2
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782

As for "allow myself to eat cake", I don't think it fits in this grammar pattern, as you're both the cake requester and the cake owner (hopefully). This is you casually informing to your kith or kin that you're relaxing your diet for a day, I think and so, no 'permission' is needed from the listener. If you're talking to yourself, then may be it works kinda, but even then it won't be part of this grammar pattern IMO. A simpler construction like: だけで ケーキを べるとう will suffice, no?


Yes, that is the sense I get. In English, when we say "allow myself to," there is usually nothing we want from the listener, as in my cake example or, say, "I'll allow myself to spend a little more than I have budgeted."


Both examples in the original post, however, do involve the listener (looking at listener's ID, inserting self (?) into listener's work situation), and from the English perspective feel like atypical/unnatural usages of "allow myself to." That is why I surmised that いただく is for the benefit of the listener.

Thank you! Your translation of the cake sentence makes sense and clarifies my doubt.


0
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782

Short side note: In these examples you do not necessarily receive proper permission as the action being conducted is inevitable. いただく is used to soften it a bit. There is no real permission granted here. Literally: "I receive making it so I can look at your ID" -> "I proceed doing...".


Thank you for your detailed and clear explanation.


I understand that no real permission is granted. Grammatically, could I say that


させていただく yields the translation "I allow myself to" because the subject of いただくis "I" whereas


させてくださる yields the translation "you allow me to" because the subject of くださる is "you"?


I have questions about the second example: ぜひにおさせていただきたいです。

What might be a plausible scenario motivating this statement? If no real permission is granted, then the speaker seems to have the authority to insert themselves into the work situation of the listener (to collaborate?). So does the speaker outrank the listener? Is ぜひ a hint of genuine enthusiasm, a polite show of enthusiasm, or a threat?


Thank you so much!


1
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
マイコー
Level: 301

The permission or offer was most likely already given. So for example, boss might have said "I've got this special job that I'd like you to work with me on", and so you could respond with this. Even though it was the boss asking you, this still shows a bit of humbleness in your response (acceptance).

2
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782

I see. Thank you!

0
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
バカ
Level: 206

Short side note: In these examples you do not necessarily receive proper permission as the action being conducted is inevitable. いただく is used to soften it a bit. There is no real permission granted here. Literally: "I receive making it so I can look at your ID" -> "I proceed doing...".


Thank you for your detailed and clear explanation.


I understand that no real permission is granted. Grammatically, could I say that


させていただく yields the translation "I allow myself to" because the subject of いただくis "I" whereas


させてくださる yields the translation "you allow me to" because the subject of くださる is "you"?


I have questions about the second example: ぜひにおさせていただきたいです。

What might be a plausible scenario motivating this statement? If no real permission is granted, then the speaker seems to have the authority to insert themselves into the work situation of the listener (to collaborate?). So does the speaker outrank the listener? Is ぜひ a hint of genuine enthusiasm, a polite show of enthusiasm, or a threat?


Thank you so much!


I'm glad you understand things a bit better now. Regarding your questions:

Yes, the idea behind させていただく is similar to "I allow myself to" in English.

However, させてくださる on the other hand does not per se mean "you allow me". Let me go into some more Japanese concepts before I answer this question.

In Japanese culture, linguistic politeness is deeply connected to the concept of social hierarchy, where the speaker typically positions themselves lower than the addressee in conversation. Imagine this hierarchy like a mountain:
When speaking to someone , you position yourself at the foot of the mountain, while the person you're addressing is positioned higher up.
This hierarchical concept is reflected in Japanese giving and receiving verbs, which literally incorporate the direction of the action (up or down):

Hierarchical Giving verbs:

  • あげる - neutral "give" (horizontal or upward, the speaker is the giver, they give upwards)
  • さしあげる - humble "give up" (even more polite, same concept)

Hierarchical Receiving verbs:

  • くださる - honorific "give down" (the other person is the subject therefor they are giving down to you
  • くれる - neutral "give" (downward, from subject to recipient/recipient's in-group)


Neutral Receiving verbs (no nuance towards hierarchy):
もらう - neutral "receive"
いただく - humble "receive" (no direct giver, abstract reception possible)

Let me put this into context with some examples:

をくださいました。 The teacher gave me a book. (gave down to me)

をくれました。 My friend gave me a book. (same thing)

をさしあげました。 I gave a gift to the professor. (the professor is the other person and since I, the speaker, am on the bottom I give upwards)

をくれました。 My sister gave a book to my mother. (works without direct involvement of yourself. My sister is the subject that is giving down.)

からアドバイスをいただきました。 I received advice from my superior. (Using kara to indicate a direction from which the reception is coming from)

をあげました。 I gave a book to my friend. (I think you get it by now but my friend is above me so I give upwards)


Let's go full circle now and answer your question. The concept of させてくださる means something along the lines of "make possible/allow downwards". If I am the speaker or rather the subject then it can indeed mean "you allow me" as long as the context is providing a sender for the reception that corresponds to "you". Something like or etc.

Your second question is quite straight forward. ぜひにおさせていただきたいです。
ぜひ means something like certainly, for sure or no question
using いただきたい actually gives us kind of a "Please allow us working together" kinda vibe, but not how you might expect. It's actually the たい that is interesting here. It shows a strong bodily desire towards something. In other words, you really want to "receive" the "させて -> making possible" of """. You can only want what you do not have, therefor, something out of your control is preventing you from receiving (the lack of permission or consent from the other person / party). This might be used by a boss talking to some personnel but to me it sounds much more like someone wanting to work together with another person.

I am not a huge fan of modern Japanese "grammar formula" teaching. As these concepts are never truly explained individually but always in conjunction with other unrelated terms. I think many people would be less confused if they'd know what is truly going on.

If you still have questions regarding your original message or new ones let me know.

3
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782

Thank you so much for sharing the information in such great detail, in order to answer my questions. I have carefully noted your points. I guess the biggest surprise for me was をくれました。Both the giver and the receiver are presumably in the speaker's in-group. I had not thought about which verb would apply, so thank you for teaching me something new with that sentence, on top of everything else!

2
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
バカ
Level: 206

Thank you so much for sharing the information in such great detail, in order to answer my questions. I have carefully noted your points. I guess the biggest surprise for me was をくれました。Both the giver and the receiver are presumably in the speaker's in-group. I had not thought about which verb would apply, so thank you for teaching me something new with that sentence, on top of everything else!


I made a small mistake there. I meant to say subject not speaker, although the speaker is often times the subject the example I gave did not reflect that. I edited that part. With くれる the giver is always the subject, hence, the person above. The sister is giving and the mother, the recipient is below.

I am glad the explanation helped you this much!

2
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
Carnelian
Level: 782


I made a small mistake there. I meant to say subject not speaker, although the speaker is often times the subject the example I gave did not reflect that. I edited that part. With くれる the giver is always the subject, hence, the person above. The sister is giving and the mother, the recipient is below.

I am glad the explanation helped you this much!


Thank you for the amendment. I hope you don't mind that I've strayed from the original questions. I have a textbook that seems to say, in short, that あげる、さしあげる、くれる、くださる、もらう and いただく all involve the speaker or someone emotionally close to the speaker, either as a giver or a receiver.


Is をくれました。intended as an exemplar of "speaker is neither the giver nor the receiver" or "receiver is part of the speaker's in-group"?


Do あげる、さしあげる、くれる、くださる、もらう and/or いただく get used in third-person reporting, like one would find in a news report, or book synopsis, such as "The fan gave his idol flowers."? Or perhaps do the textbook and other sources mean to say that, where the speaker or speaker's in-group is involved, those restrictions apply?

0
9 months ago
Report Content
avatar
バカ
Level: 206


I made a small mistake there. I meant to say subject not speaker, although the speaker is often times the subject the example I gave did not reflect that. I edited that part. With くれる the giver is always the subject, hence, the person above. The sister is giving and the mother, the recipient is below.

I am glad the explanation helped you this much!


Thank you for the amendment. I hope you don't mind that I've strayed from the original questions. I have a textbook that seems to say, in short, that あげる、さしあげる、くれる、くださる、もらう and いただく all involve the speaker or someone emotionally close to the speaker, either as a giver or a receiver.


Is をくれました。intended as an exemplar of "speaker is neither the giver nor the receiver" or "receiver is part of the speaker's in-group"?


Do あげる、さしあげる、くれる、くださる、もらう and/or いただく get used in third-person reporting, like one would find in a news report, or book synopsis, such as "The fan gave his idol flowers."? Or perhaps do the textbook and other sources mean to say that, where the speaker or speaker's in-group is involved, those restrictions apply?


You brought up some quite important points here. First of all, what your textbook is talking about is probably the hierarchical upwards / downwards structure we've discussed. Let me add onto that. There is one set rule when it comes to this, we, the speaker, are ALWAYS below everybody else. Hence, if we want to give as the speaker we must use あげる or one of its relatives expressing upwards giving. Now, your in-group is also on the bottom with you, they are on your "side". The main difference lies in the perspective/viewpoint being taken, specifically in the use of くれる versus あげる:

をくれました

  • Implies you're viewing the action from your mother's perspective (the receiver's side)
  • Indicates the action is coming toward your in-group (in this case, your mother)
  • Shows more emotional closeness to your mother (as you are both at the bottom)
  • More natural in this context since you're likely considering your mother as part of your in-group

    くれる always indicates movement toward the speaker's side/group

    をあげました
  • Views the action from your sister's perspective (the giver's side)
  • More objective/neutral description of the giving action (a bit stiff or heavy)
  • Creates emotional distance from the situation (see reason below)
  • Less natural in this context when talking about your own family members (because the giving is directed upwards or away from you and your in-group)

    あげる always indicates movement away from the speaker's position/group

    Here's a clearer example to illustrate:
  • さんがをくれました (correct)
  • さんがをあげました (incorrect)

    When you're the receiver, you must use くれる because the action is coming toward you, even though さん is the subject. If you are giving you always use あげる.

    News report context (neutral third-person reporting):
    ファンがアイドルにをあげました。
    This is perfectly natural as objective reporting. As you are not involved with any of these people and it expresses sort of a distance between the fan and the idol (which makes sense).

    However, compare this to personal context:

    のファンしにをあげました。
    Me and my friend are both in the same in-group hence the flower is given away from us (upwwards -> ageru)

    Think of these scenarios:

    1. しがファンのたちにをくれた (Our idol gave flowers to us fans) ✓ Makes sense: action is coming toward speaker's group (fans)
    2. しがをくれた (The idol gave me a letter) ✓ Makes sense: action is coming toward speaker
    3. しにをあげた (My friend gave flowers to the idol) ✓ Makes sense: action is going away from speaker's sphere toward the idol

    Does that make it a bit clearer?

  • 3
    9 months ago
    Report Content
    avatar
    Carnelian
    Level: 782

    Yes, very clear. Thank you very much!

    0
    9 months ago
    Report Content
    Getting the posts




    Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese


    Loading the list
    Lv.

    Sorry, there was an error on renshuu! If it's OK, please describe what you were doing. This will help us fix the issue.

    Characters to show:





    Use your mouse or finger to write characters in the box.
    ■ Katakana ■ Hiragana