「アメリカの大統領選挙に対して投票した人は多かった。」 There were a lot of people who voted for the United States election for president.
This sentence seems wrong or is overly complicated
1. The only situation I can think of where the English could work is If there was a man-on-the-street survey about the most significant current events of 2008....
There were a lot of people who voted for 『The United States election for president.』（as opposed to the Financial crisis, Piracy in Somali...)
2. However there seems nothing wrong with the accuracy of the translation, they have faithfully translated a badly constructed example. 3. See I think most likely the original person has tried to write "A lot of people voted IN the American presidential election" but they messed up. Someone has checked the accuracy of the translation and made a more perfect reflection of the misconstrued Japanese.
4.This is the root problem with the whole grammar project. LEARNERS of Japanese are suggesting the model sentences and then there is little opportunity to fix the Japanese Model. Its like turning over your Japanese class to your fellow classmates and gagging the Japanese teacher in the corner when they point out that there is a mistake. Or its like all those glaring inaccuracies that can be found in most English textbooks made by Japanese. In the end its a big fat waste of time not checking the accuracy of the Japanese by Japanese. and then checking it again for simplicity. 5. Yep its great to have a wiki style thing but you have to find some way of getting native speakers checking and correcting the basic sentences.
Thanks for the response. For this particular sentence, a Japanese person did look over the original Japanese. If (for this example or any other) you see a mistake, please let me know of an appropriate correction. While I am very interested in increasing the stability of the library as a whole (in the sense of logistics: how things are added, etc), it doesn't help in criticism is made (about a suggestion) without a suggestion for improvement. While most of the Japanese sentences used as models for the grammar pages have been looked over by a Japanese native, everyone will miss something occasionally, and I do not yet have the resources to guarantee 100% checked materials.
I don't think the grammar library is perfect, but I also don't see how it is in any way related to your reference to gagging a Japanese teacher. I listen to and consider all reports made by users (this includes when I've run sentences by native speakers in the past - I'd be a fool not to listen to input like that). There's a link next to every sentence for reports of inaccuracy if someone notices something; I fail to see how that's considered to be 'little opportunity'.
I'd be really happy to have more users like yourself that have studied for a number of years point out errors when they are found - I really don't think they are that many mistakes or inaccuracies. Of course, it is up to you as to whether or participate or not :)
For sentences that have not been directly checked by Japanese by my request (a large number of sentences in the site are from the Tanaka corpus - although very few of these are actually used in the grammar library), I have plans on additional checking by Japanese natives in the future.
Please let me know what you feel is an improved version of this sentence, and if you have any comments on what I wrote above. Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit: I updated that 'is this japanese incorrect' link a bit so it matches that of when you click 'incorrect' on example sentences listed in the vocab lists. This should allow for a bit more detailed feedback.
1. thanks Michael for going right ahead and proving my point. The fact that you wrote me a big long reply defending the system complete with this bad example and did nothing about the problem sentence itself that I had taken the time to bring to your attention, is exactly what I'm talking about. See, I am on the list, and I did participate, but this is exactly the reason why I don't participate anymore I was finding that most of the time the Japanese sentence needed more work than the English translation! 1 sentence in 3 was 「変だね!」 according to my Japanese wife. But the Japanese was fixed so there was no way to fix it. Once the error is in it takes so much effort to get it out. Which is exactly what has happened here too. 2. My suggestion WAS in the original comment. So let me reframe it Would it not be a better example to have "A lot of people voted IN the American presidential election" See you don't vote FOR an ELECTION, you vote IN an ELECTION or FOR a CANDIDATE. But in Japanese that's probably not going to be the grammar に対してyou are trying to explain so the example is just dead wrong.
But my other point was why make such a complicated example, anyway. Why not simply. スポーツに対して、僕はテニスが好きです。 As for sports, I like tennis. When it comes to sports, I like tennis. Regarding sports, I like tennis.
3. Look, I can see the legal reason why you want to make your own library and that's great. I actually work for a podcast with over 40,000 daily downloads and we have a website too. But like us you should have native speakers make all the examples or use sentences from public domain sources, change the nouns and you have a beautiful grammatically correct, legal-worry free re-copyright-able example sentence. Let's say you know "The teacher praised my essay." is correct, but you don't want to use it just in case for your legal reasons. fine, but --> The professor praised my thesis. Or --> The director praised my performance. Or --> The company president praised my quarterly report. --> The coach praised my batting. can now all be copyrighted in your name, and you have more people interested and impressed with your grammar library.
IF NOT THEN K"I"S"S. Just make it almost as easy to remove bad sentences as it is to put them in.
1. I have to apologize: I did not see your suggestion for the corrected sentence; I was focusing too much on everything else you were saying in regards to the system as a whole. It is not my intention to defend the bad sentence: I am going to take your suggestion and fix it as soon as I finish writing this post. I did, as I noted, add a simpler link for suggesting corrections so it takes very little effort to get the error out. (This isn't meant to sound insincere) - if you feel like there's a better way to facilitate the correction of materials once they're up there, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
2. I mentioned it above, but apologies for not seeing your correction; I'm going to fix it immediately; I'll also update the grammar's definition a bit to make it more clear. I'll also add in the sentence you suggested as well.
3. That's a really good idea with the public domain materials; would you by chance have any sites to suggest that I could use to start digging around in? I'd be happy with any info.
4?. It really isn't my intention to defend flaws in the system; on the contrary, I appreciate others taking the time to offer useful criticism - I often feel like I develop tunnel vision about certain things on the site (after spending so much time building the back-end of it) and cease being able to see certain problems. I was hoping in my previous post to just lay out what the process has been up until now so you could see what was going on, not to say that it was perfect and shouldn't be changed.
As to your last sentence, if you think there is a simpler way than the links that are up there next to the model sentences, let me know.
I hope we can continue this chat - I'm not interested in digging myself into one position but rather to just get the grammar library to a higher level of quality.
1. Cool that was just my point, I'm just trying to be your candid friend telling how it looks from this side. I think your quiz engine is first rate, that's why I'm here! The simpler link for suggesting corrections too is good. Now make it a little harder for a bad sentence to get in, in the first place. Also you already have a bank of examples in the vocab section that theoretically have been parsed by a large number of users. Why don't you use those sentences that have been given a useful rating by 3 or more users, as example sentences in the grammar section too.
2. Correction noted now someone moving from 3rd grade to 2nd grade, which is your target audience can get the idea of the grammar immediately.
3. I would suggest that if you do as I suggested and significantly change the meaning and content of the sentence, then just about any high volume widely available material is safe. I am talking about one sentence out of a newspaper article for example. Especially an old one and removing all mention of the current event in question. In my examples above the only constant between the sentences is... "The ~ praised my ~" And no-one can copyright an incomplete sentence fragment like that especially of words in common usage, unless it is a company trademark or slogan like "I'm loving it"(sic, as in not standard English, which kind of proves my point) On top of that, since you don't charge any money and you are .org; And because many newspapers provide an online edition for free, And because most people using you grammar site won't be regular subscribers of a newspaper in Japanese... It would be hard to see how you would be detrimentally affecting their business in any way even if you lifted a whole sentence verbatim from an online newspaper. Though I would obviously avoid JLPT texts.
Thanks, and sorry for the late reply. I'll keep those points in mind when adding materials in the future.
I also realized a big misunderstanding on my part - those 'correction' links for the model sentences had *always* been there, but they were only showing up for me - so all this time I was talking about them, but I guess you couldn't see the links, right? *laughs* Sorry about that - they should be available for everyone now so anyone can report a mistake.
I just spoke with a native speaker (teacher next to me), and she says that the スポーツにたいして、、、 sentence is strange... Sorry, gerardo.
Here's some from my textbook: 目上の人に対して、そういう言い方は失礼ですよ。 It's rude to speak to your superiors that way. 都市で人口が増えているのに対し、農村では減っている。 In contrast to the rising population in the cities, the population in the countryside is falling.
Thanks Dan that was exactly my point-- 1.The first example they had was way too complicated, and the ENGLISH translation was dead wrong. 2. that it seemed stupid to be re-inventing the wheel with a strict NO COPYRIGHTED MATERIALS rule which will end up with non-native speakers producing strange examples or strange translations. Me too, guilty as charged. But 3. I never really intended that to be an actually example, and certainly not go live unchecked because I had made it very clear that in my view they should be checking ALL Japanese example sentences with Native speakers!
However, luckily for all of us here, your textbook, uncited, is clearly copyright free. Would you care to enlighten us as to the title? Or is perhaps possible that thanks to my comments above about their system I have been the agent of change to the rules here that allowed you to suggest an example from a copyrighted textbook?
You call it re-inventing the wheel, but using copyrighted materials is still using copyrighted materials, cited or not. You noted above a way to alter the sentences so as to include them, and so I took that idea and altered one of the sentences he presented before including it (the one Dan mentioned).
I guess I was mistaken in using the sports example that you had put up earlier; you wrote such in-depth comments railing against the usage of non-checked sentences that I figured that you surely weren't going to then post a sentence which was potentially incorrect. Again, my apologies for misunderstanding that.
Since our last conversation, I had slowed down (stopped, for a good while) adoption of sentences for use as model sentences; links were put in place (shortly after, so well over half a year ago) to make it easy for anyone to suggest changes to a sentence. When I did include more sentences (it was a couple months ago), I had a native speaker go through each one to verify that it was/is natural.
I personally feel like the system has been improved both on the front end (easier for users to suggest changes) and on the back end (stricter checking by native speakers), and I am still quite interested in any methodology changes that would improve the way the site handles the materials.
Well I'm glad to see that my input had such a positive impact that you overhauled your whole system and you personally fell like it has been improved both front end and back end. I was touched by your personal message of thanks, not to mention the large number of Genki points, and your generous offer of a free 6 month trial of Renshuu PRO so that I can cast my incisive eye through there and come up with still more ways for the system to be improved and for you to increase your bottom line. Well I really can see that you are still quite interested in any methodology changes that would improve the way the site handles the materials.
Great! I welcome your (and everyone else's) ideas, whether it's about the actual content, the display method, quizzing, all that jazz. I can be reached directly as well through the 'contact' link in the Help page, if you've got any comments/problems/ideas/etc that aren't tied to a specific grammar entry.
I'm an ESL teacher (started with the JET programme, but I'm making it my vocation back in the states), well, hopeful teacher, and even if I don't stick with ESL, I'm fascinated by education, partly because it's a never-ending process of finding better ways to present materials, engage students, and help raise the comprehension (and the enjoyment) during the learning process :)
Hello there i have a quick question about using this Grammar. I have realized in my studies od Japanese that direct translation never works so I would like to know if using this grammar in a certain context works.
The original English sentence is:
The combination of large molecular size, hydrophilicity, susceptibility to chemical and/or enzymatic degradation, virtually excludes systemic absorption of drugs from most of the mucosal surfaces.
My Japanese translation:
I understand the content of the sentence is abnormal but i am more interested in the grammar.
8 years ago
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