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When/if A, then B
Used to show a natural/habitual consequence, or a factual relationship/condition

  1. When/if A, then B
    Used to show a natural/habitual consequence, or a factual relationship/condition
  2. A and B (and C,etc..)
    Gives a complete list. The final と may be omitted.
  3. With A; to A
    A is often a person, shows a action/state shared by 2 people/things
  4. Shows a sequence of two events A and B
    These events do not necessarily need to have a cause/effect relationship.
Join for free or Login to study this and other grammar in the lesson Conjunctions!
13
この キノコ   べる      まらなく なる  だって  
They say that if you eat this mushroom, you won't be able to stop laughing.
8
         なります  
When you turn off the electricity, it gets dark.
7
    べる     そう  なる  
When I eat natto, I feel like I'm going to be sick.
17
     すぐ   かも  れません  
If you take the medicine, you'll probably get better soon.
7
やってみない   できる かどうか  からない  
You won't know if you can do it or not unless you try.
9
この           える  
If you walk this bridge you'll see the library.

Getting the sentences
These user sentences have been verified by a native speaker.

7
すぐ
The reply came soon after the postcard was sent.
8 years ago (0) (0)
6
だとする
If the child is healthy, the parents will be relieved.
8 years ago (0) (0)
3
なるるくなる
It will be bright if it is 4 o'clock in the morning in the summer.
8 years ago (0) (0)
3
これなりますけてください
You will become sick if you work more than this. Please take care.
8 years ago (0) (0)
2
しないでんでいるれないだろう
You probably can't enter university if you play and don't study.
8 years ago (0) (0)
9
するなります
When you study, you become smart.
8 years ago (0) (0)
Loading user sentences...

Construction
(Underlined elements are optional)
AVerb (non past)
+
~
BVerb (non past)
Examples:
える (if you go (there), you'll see (it))

ANoun
+
+
Aな-adjective
+
+
Aい-adjective
+
Notes
This cannot be used to show a person's intentions or will; the phrase the follows the と is an inevitable event or condition
Related Expressions
Where this grammar is found


User notes
4

If you still don't get it.
Basically this is just like たら except what ever happens is natural
And will most likely Always happen that way
Ex: when it rains, you get wet
Ex: if you take the next right on that road, you will always pull into walmart.

Hope I cleared up some scrambled minds Haha
9 years ago
avatar くるるぎくん - Level 1
10

"Whenever A, B"

Function: Describe a state which is always brought whenever A's condition is satisfied. (Describe general / inevitable / habitual consequences.)

Typical functions:
- describe natural law
- giving instruction on machines
- giving directions to describe what is in a certain location

A can be volitional or non-volitional.
B cannot be a volitional action, but can describe a habitual action.
(This means B cannot be a volitional action, desire, command, request, invitation, suggestion, or advice.)

Examples:
A non-volitional, B non-volitional:
になると、かくなります。
When summer comes, it gets warm.

A volitional, B non-volitional:
ボタンをすと、コーヒーがてきます。
When you press the button, coffee comes out.
10 years ago
avatar solostyle - Level 1
 
A and B (and C,etc..)
Gives a complete list. The final と may be omitted.

  1. When/if A, then B
    Used to show a natural/habitual consequence, or a factual relationship/condition
  2. A and B (and C,etc..)
    Gives a complete list. The final と may be omitted.
  3. With A; to A
    A is often a person, shows a action/state shared by 2 people/things
  4. Shows a sequence of two events A and B
    These events do not necessarily need to have a cause/effect relationship.
Join for free or Login to study this and other grammar in the lesson Basic Particles III!
3
           ります  
I am going to climb Mt. Fuji today and tomorrow.
3
あの パン   こっち  ケーキ  どちらも  べたい です  
I want to eat both that bread and this cake.
3
     とても       です  
He and she are a really good couple.
1
              ってきました  
Today I brought one book and two volumes of manga.

Getting the sentences
Construction
(Underlined elements are optional)
ANoun
+
+
BNoun
+
Examples:
りんごオレンジ (apples and oranges)

Where this grammar is found


User notes
10

A common mistake is to use と when listing different activities. In Japanese, this particular "and" only links nouns, never verbs.
8 years ago
avatar emmy - Level 1
1
with this usage i would like to add if its a set of things
you should use に instead of と
ex= "cake & ice cream, french fries & ketchup"
8 years ago
avatar くるるぎくん - Level 1
11

this differs from や in that it's a definitive list; や implies that there are other things in the list that aren't mentioned: would mean 'books and magazines (and other things),' while would signify 'books and magazines (and nothing else).'
9 years ago
avatar mysticfive - Level 208
 
With A; to A
A is often a person, shows a action/state shared by 2 people/things

  1. When/if A, then B
    Used to show a natural/habitual consequence, or a factual relationship/condition
  2. A and B (and C,etc..)
    Gives a complete list. The final と may be omitted.
  3. With A; to A
    A is often a person, shows a action/state shared by 2 people/things
  4. Shows a sequence of two events A and B
    These events do not necessarily need to have a cause/effect relationship.
Join for free or Login to study this and other grammar in the lesson Basic Particles II!
きのうともだち スキー  った  
Yesterday I went with my friends to ski.
4
 しい      いる      きです  
I love being with fun people.
6
        きました  
I went to a movie with him.
2
             んでいます  
I have tea with my family everyday.
0
     こたつ   っています  
I'm under the kotatsu together with my cat.

Getting the sentences
These user sentences have been verified by a native speaker.

3
った
I went to the park with my dog.
8 years ago (0) (0)
6
ぼう
Wanna play with me?
8 years ago (0) (0)
4
はおさんとった。
I went shopping with my mother.
8 years ago (0) (0)
6
した
Did you talk with your friends?
8 years ago (0) (0)
5
きました。
I went to Japan with my sister.
8 years ago (0) (0)
Loading user sentences...

Construction
(Underlined elements are optional)
ANoun
+
Examples:
(with him)

Where this grammar is found


User notes
No user notes have been added. Logged-in users can add user notes.
 
Shows a sequence of two events A and B
These events do not necessarily need to have a cause/effect relationship.

  1. When/if A, then B
    Used to show a natural/habitual consequence, or a factual relationship/condition
  2. A and B (and C,etc..)
    Gives a complete list. The final と may be omitted.
  3. With A; to A
    A is often a person, shows a action/state shared by 2 people/things
  4. Shows a sequence of two events A and B
    These events do not necessarily need to have a cause/effect relationship.
0
        れた  
I ran a bit and I ran out of breath.

Getting the sentences
Construction
(Underlined elements are optional)
AVerb: Dictionary Form
+
+
BVerb: Casual, past (た)


User notes
No user notes have been added. Logged-in users can add user notes.

Discussion about this grammar
guest
Will examples be added to the last grammar point on this page? I don't entirely understand the explanation given and have nothing to go on.
4
10 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
At some point, yes, but I can't give any estimates as to when.
0
10 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: 8
Studying: JPLT N1
Level: 1, : 219
About the second grammar point, I'm confused. The notes say the the second verb is past tense, but the model sentences have it in present tense. Are the notes or the model wrong?
1
10 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Notes, sorry! It's been fixed.
0
10 years ago
guest
What's the difference between the third and fourth meanings? They seem identical to me.
0
8 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: since 2000
Studying: のため、だから
Level: 208, : 4,389
the fourth meaning is more of a cause-and-effect, the third meaning is more of a natural happening, something that's obvious
1
8 years ago
guest
I understand what you're saying, but the meanings still seem practically identical to me. Part of the problem lies in the example sentences. Look at the examples for the fourth meaning: 1. 「すと、くらくなります。」 2. 「るとつかれる」 3. 「なっとうをべると、つきそうになる。」 Of these three, only the third one seems like it may belong under the fourth meaning. The first two are certainly obvious, natural, inevitable occurrences, are they not? To clarify the differences between these two usages, I think perhaps the fourth meaning can be best explained as describing an immediate sequence of events. I say this because there are situations where the subordinate clause (A) is not a cause and the main clause (B) is not an effect; rather, (B) simply directly follows (A) in time. For instance: るとすぐえてまたかけた。」 As soon as he came home, he changed his clothes and went out again. What throws me off a little bit is that sometimes it's not so easy to draw a line between when 「と」 is describing a repeated factual condition, and when it is simply expressing a successive sequence of events. Consider these two seemingly identical usages: 「このめると、よくえる。」 If you go up to the top of this slope, you can see the ocean quite well. がると、えます。」 As soon as you turn right at the next corner, you'll see a church with a white roof. Now, at first these seemed like identical usages of 「と」, but I think that the key difference is that the first sentence is describing a repeated factual condition - the key is the use of the word よく. In other words, the emphasis is not so much on the temporal relationship of the main clause to the first half of the sentence, but instead on the factual condition that there is always a good view of the ocean from the top of the hill. It's an extremely subtle difference, I know, but it's a difference that I know must exist because these two sentences come from separate meanings of the 「と」 conditional in one of my grammar books. It is also entirely possible that there is some tiny degree of overlap between the two usages, and that a small number of sentences can fall reasonably well under both meanings at the same time (such as the above two examples), which may have been one of the primary sources of my confusion. Obviously I'm still fleshing these ideas out, but the way I'm seeing it right now is that there are basically two fundamentally distinct, yet at the same time often incredibly similar and related usages of this conditional: [1] repeated factual conditions/habitual occurrences/natural occurrences (note that this already corresponds nicely with our meaning #3 here on this page) [2] an immediate sequence of two events (which may or may not be operating in a cause/effect relationship) I'd really like to know what everyone else thinks about this, but for now I'm going to suggest that the fourth meaning on the page be narrowed in its scope to only pertain to usage [2], while the first meaning be left as is to encompass everything else.
1
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
I apologize for the delay in looking at this. I have adjusted the first of the two meanings, and I am thinking a bit more before I change the second - I would like to reference a few sources first. Once I do that, I will readjust the model sentences so they fit a bit better.
0
8 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Upon further searching, I cannot find reference in two larger texts to the 'sequence of events' style definition. Which reference are you looking at? I wonder if it would simply be easier (considering the scope of this library) to combine the two?
1
8 years ago
guest
Basic Connection: Making Your Japanese Flow, by Kakuko Shoji (ISBN978-4-7700-2860-0) I'm all for combining them; as I noted in my original post, I still do not see much of any difference between the two usages, no matter the scope of inquiry. However, should the usages be kept separate, then I believe that we need a better delineation between the two for the sake of clarity.
1
8 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Combined!
1
8 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: 3
Studying: JLPT N3
Level: 1, : 268
Quick question on the last form. Verb: Imperative (strong command)A + と Example: うと (wash (it)) So, to make the command more agressive, all you do is add the と? You don't have to change the verb to えと? Also, why is it titled, "Do (Don't do) A"? Where does the "Do" come in?
0
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
guest
First of all, I don't think there is a command form that ends in 「と」. Even if there is (I've never come across it yet), I know for sure that there is no [dictionary form + と] command form. Options for imperative forms that I know of are 「え」, 「って」, 「いなさい」
1
8 years ago
avatar
Years Studied: 3
Studying: JLPT N3
Level: 1, : 268
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Sorry I am such a bother. :)
1
8 years ago
guest
It's no bother at all, we are all learning this stuff together.
1
8 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
I think the usage examples could be improved a bit if they included the required passive verb (われる,される, etc.) - maybe that is causing the confusion?
0
8 years ago
guest
This is from a Japanese teacher, and I quote: [quote]わないって。 we dont put と after verb in any form. who said like that ?? へんだよ~[/quote]
1
8 years ago
guest
What I think the problem is that the rest of the expression is omitted, that's the only way it makes any sense at all. As in something like: 「されないとる」 But if anything this usage really deserves it's own grammar page (if it doesn't have one already); it's too confusing to list it here as an incomplete abbreviated form that is actually being implied as a weak command, in my opinion. Barring that, it really needs to be explained in depth in the usage notes, so people can understand where it is coming from grammatically.
1
8 years ago (Edited 8 years ago.)
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Problem, though, is that most language teachers don't have their minds organized like a filing cabinet, where they can say 'verbs, what can follow it?' then get a perfect list. I can think off the top of my head, like you gave, several examples. しないとね << shortened form of といけない . It can be a bit dangerous at times to say 'this NEVER happens' はやるといました There's another one. I will, for the time being, remove it from this page until I decide the best way to re-add it. I do think, though, that said teacher spoke a little too quickly.
0
8 years ago
guest
Right, but the thing is that on this page it was taken completely out of context, with no explanation that there has to be verb after it (even if it is implied), which is what makes it resemble a command or a strong suggestion. Hence the confusion and the questions.
1
8 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Yea, definitely agree with you there. I will revisit the re-addition of it (on a separate page) when I have some time - need to get back to 2 more key features for the beta renshuu! yay! Thanks for all of your input and taking the time to help lookup (and consult with others) so we can have the most accurate info!
1
8 years ago
guest
You're welcome, but no need to thank me - I learn just as much if not more from people's questions as they do. I remember wondering about that usage myself on my initial pass through this page.
0
8 years ago
Level: 1, : 0
I want to say that it seems there has been made a mistake on this page. If you go through the discussion here, you'll find a talk from years ago about the two possible meanings of [verb non-past]+と~[verb non-past]. That is the following: [quote]there are basically two fundamentally distinct, yet at the same time often incredibly similar and related usages of this conditional: [1] repeated factual conditions/habitual occurrences/natural occurrences (note that this already corresponds nicely with our meaning #3 here on this page) [2] an immediate sequence of two events (which may or may not be operating in a cause/effect relationship) [/quote] Right now, only [1] is represented on this page. This caused me extreme confusion, because the study book I was using was clearly using [2] and could not be using [1]. (I could derive the meaning from the context, but I came here to check the exact grammar because I'd never encountered this use of と before). The sentence in question is the following, btw: は、くと、そのにつけました。 The man went to the field and hung the picture on a tree branch. I of course have no clue what happened since this discussion was held three years ago. But I'm guessing there was some kind of mistake and something was removed that shouldn't have been? Because as is now this page is extremely confusing when you are looking for this use of と and can't find it anywhere until you read the comments.
0
6 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Thanks for the response. From your perspective as coming here for more information, would you feel it is clearer if that point is separated out into an entirely different meaning (on this page), or if it is added to the list of the current when/if then meaning that is given now?
0
6 years ago
Level: 1, : 0
Thanks for your quick response as well! I think it should be separated out into an entirely different meaning (on this page). For one because I think that way is the most clear, but also because if you go to the page for たら: (http://www.renshuu.org/index.php?page=grammar/individual&id=109), there you have an almost identical situation, and it separates them into entirely different meanings. So it would keep things consistent across pages as well.
0
6 years ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Sorry for the delay in getting it up - I wanted to consult a few additional sources fourth. The fourth meaning has been added!
0
6 years ago
Level: 1, : 0
Took me a while to check back, but I just want to say great to see you added it! It'll be a great help to anyone else coming here looking for the same thing. :D
0
6 years ago
Years Studied: Since Nov 2018
Studying: JLPT N3
Level: 1, : 12
V (informal nonpast) + と
いAdjective (informal nonpast) + と
なAdjective (informal nonpast) + だと
Noun (informal nonpast) + だと

{V/Adjective (い/な) Noun+copula} informal nonpast + と

Ive seen some sources that (1 and possibly 4) could be constructed like this?

それはくとすぐかった。 - example for (4)
I understood it immediately when I asked my teacher.

タイヤはいとないですよ。
Tires are dangerous if they are old.

いだとったりますか?
If you don't like fish, will you have trouble when you go to Japan?

だとがあります。
If you are a student, there is a discount.
0
1 year ago (Edited 1 year ago.)
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Agreed for #1, and added! Need to get some example sentences up on #4 soon, first.
0
1 year ago
Years Studied: Since Nov 2018
Studying: JLPT N3
Level: 1, : 12
Edited my top comment to reflect いAdjective, I think there's no だ after it. (or I could be wrong)
0
1 year ago
avatar
Site admin
Level: 28, : 4,301
Whoops, sorry about that! I am 100% sure that there is no だ, but my brain must have crossed wires when I was inputting it.
0
1 year ago



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